A complete new comparison: Sigma SD1 versus Sony cameras!
One of the most…”exotic” cameras has been tested by Luminous Landscape. The camera has two particularities:
1) It uses a Foveon sensor
2) It has a crazy price! Check at Amazon (Click here) and BHphoto (Click here). Scary!!!
But let’s focus on the “Sonyaspect” of the review. First we all know Sony filled some patents for their own foveon-like technology. So it’s interesting to see how the new SD1 foveon sensor performs! And than Luminous Landscape compared the image quality with the Sony A900 and Sony A55 cameras! Read the review here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sigma_sd1_review.shtml.
What do you think about the image quality difference? LL says: “The A900 rolls off more smoothly in the highlights. But, when it comes to resolution the lack of an AA filter shows though. The SD1 clearly resolves more micro-detail. This is one of the reasons it is able to punch above its weight when it comes to making large prints. There is simply more detail in the file.“
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Comment from Scott Kennelly: Froo, what do you mean by a "1.5x resolu...
Comment from baidu456: Thank you for letting me know your thoug...
Comment from Froo: You are correct that Foveon sensors have...
Comment from Marcohard: Andrea, someone said that you were using...
AnYpHoTo
10 months ago |is 30+MP is just few months ahead???!!! luminous-landscape think it is
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sigma_sd1_review.shtml
“It has neither the features nor specifications of a Pro camera such as a Nikon D3x or Canon 1Ds MkIII, let alone a 5D MKII or Sony A900. And with new 30+ Megapixel versions of these three company’s flagships coming in the months ahead….”
admin
10 months ago |I already told you about the next two FF cameras in the past weeks. Don’t remember?
AnYpHoTo
10 months ago |yap,we remember
but is there any time expected for this FF?? is it a matter of a year or more from now or only few months ahead(around xmas or the early 2012)??
Bugger
10 months ago |I wonder what would have happened if they partnered with an experienced body maker
john
10 months ago |Then they’d announce it @$13,000 with a street price of $9,700.
Eric
10 months ago |After reading this article and examining the side-by-side photos, I think the Sigma SD1 is a joke.
1. There shouldn’t be any color noise – but there’s plenty of it.
2. Its really bad in low-light, where DSLRs are supposed to excel.
3. Its ISO range is only good up to ISO800 (relates to the point above).
4. It’s sluggish, and RAW files take many seconds to get written.
5. It has a warm color cast, which shifts the entire color pallete. White-balance is clearly off, even when manually calibrating it.
6. Its price is obviously way off the mark.
7. As mentioned in the article, there currently isn’t RAW file support in 3rd party software, and Sigma’s own software is basically none-usable.
About the only good thing going for this camera is the lack of an Anti-aliasing filter, and a quick-release IR filter.
By not needing an AA filter, the SD1 has the ability to create smooth-looking fine details, which can be clearly seen on text, hair, feathers, garments and such.
So if a manufacturer builds a Bayer-sensor camera without using an AA filter there wouldn’t be any advantages to the SD1. Oh wait – there is such a camera: Leica M9!! At about the same price, forget the SD1 and go the M9. It has better lenses as well.
huan
10 months ago |there is an advantage over bayer sensors without AA filter:no need for interpolation.interpolation is like upscaling,making photos less sharp and is essentially responsible for the color moire.
HS
10 months ago |Correct! Most of the guys here including the SD1-Tester don´t really think about it, even if they see it.
But unfortunately we can´t see it in this test, because the tester manipulated the images and said: “the images are too sharp and too much details and colors” so he cut the sharpness -2 (about 60%) and add some work in photoshop to make the images “comparable”.
Have a look at the RAW-Images of an actual DPs or DPx or read any qualified test. They give the details of an 8Mp Sensor without moiree, but it is a 5 Mp only.
This is why Sony is working on this kind of sensor and maybe their experience will bring this sencortype to the high ISO and low price we want.
Froo
10 months ago |You are correct that Foveon sensors have a 1.5x resolution advantage compared to bayer, but as long as the bayer sensors can keep this advantage (which they have been able to) without a significant price difference (obviously, Foveon now is more expensive) or quality difference (IMO, foveon is worse) bayer will win. Foveon = interesting technology, failed execution (or theoretical limitations beyond my knowledge).
emopunk
10 months ago |Simply increasing pixel density on older sensor design is clearly a blind path. No skilled or pro photographer wants to have many megs files for no reason. We all would appreciate reasonable file sizes with more micro-detail. Foveon sensors is a ray of light. I hope that Sony thinks of something new for the sensors, rather than releasing a 30+ mpix full frame.. Imagine what could be when this technology is perfectionated and it joins qualities we already see to high ISO performance on D700 level.. That’s what we’re all waiting to spend lots of money on.
dk
10 months ago |Just because you can’t utilise the extra MP doesn’t mean that others can’t as well. The MP evolution won’t go away any time soon, so live with it.
SonyA77
10 months ago |If I could have 30+mpix, I’d use it. You are quite welcome to continue using 6mpix on your camera
kalpurush :)
10 months ago |SD1 is even worser that the a55! Let alobe the a900. For $7,000 I could but three a900 or 3 CZ lens and the a900!!
An epic fail from Sigma IMHO.
Carl
10 months ago |That 645D looks damn fine.
Sky_walker
10 months ago |It even looks excellent.
DragonEye
10 months ago |With so high price tag Sigma either lost the clue or had low-rate output from sensor manufacturing.
Anyway there in Sigma users camp one can see frustration and tendency to jump the ship.
Stupig
10 months ago |Suppose that little resolution would be gone when the 24MP APSc sensors come out?
The really stupid thing for Sigma DSLRs is – SA mount. All the other brands can use Sigma lenses, and their own lens lineups are not any worse.
Don Cox
10 months ago |“Suppose that little resolution would be gone when the 24MP APSc sensors come out?”
I think it will need 30 MP to equal the SD1′s 15 MP. Take a 30 MP photo and scale it down to 15 MP.
“The really stupid thing for Sigma DSLRs is – SA mount. All the other brands can use Sigma lenses, and their own lens lineups are not any worse.”
I agree. This is why I will buy a 24 MP NEX and accept the lower resolution. No way am I buying a load of SA mount lenses, however good they are (and some of Sigma’s lenses are excellent).
emopunk
10 months ago |That’s fine.. If most of the photographers demands high mpix count, no wonder if we will still have unusable results above 800 ISO. I hope to be be wrong, of course.
Don Cox
10 months ago |For good examples of SD1 images see here:
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker/sd1
Especially the shots of rooftops.
The sharpness is extraordinary, but the colour balance is a big problem. However, this is a software problem. The SPP program for converting the Raw files is simply not finished, and has been rushed out to get the camera on the market.
I think in a few months we will see a debugged SPP and SD1 shots with colour as good as from the other current Sigma cameras, the DP1x, DP2x and SD15. These are giving very good colour, judging from the shots I see posted on web sites.
Certainly the Foveon sensors are slower than the Bayers, just as Kodachrome was slower than Ektachrome, and Tech Pan was slower than FP4.
What in my opinion is needed is a Sony-made sensor with full colour pixels and no AA filter. 24 Mpix would be plenty.
Milos Janata
10 months ago |OMG that LL site… click thumbnail photo for enlarged thumbnail serving Us with 6 ads oO
SonyA77
10 months ago |So?
Carl
10 months ago |There’s plenty of ads here, too. That’s how websites make money.
Milos Janata
10 months ago |If they make money they should be able to host bigger than 800pix picture.
Imagine that I put samples of my music at 16kbps MP3 and then download link for 24kbps version.
@Carl I see one ad on right side, and then I have to scroll down whole page to see second. Much appreciated at SAR. But i guess it will change in future
Rob
10 months ago |LL writes with great authority – it’s about the best photo website around.
emopunk
10 months ago |I agree 100%.
Rob
10 months ago |The article illustrates the advantages to eliminating an AA filter, which reduces aliasing (jagged edges) by causing a known amount of blurring. I wonder if the interpolation offered in the new Sony digicam, the TX55, can be used instead of an AA – as I suspect it could fulfill that function. Also, interpolation could effectively enlarge pixel size, and increase the signal/noise ration (and greatly reduce noise). AA and noise reduction usually involve a blurring or smearing, but I suspect an interpolation function would just fill in the gaps and not decrease detail. Coupled witha 30+ megapixel sensor, the camera could deliver KILLER images. IMHO, this is the way of the future.
Mick
10 months ago |Hey there,
I owned the SD10 and SD14. Latter was resolution wise on par with the Fuji S5 and Canon 30D. Clarity is a factor where Foveon shines. Structures like fabric, grass and other organic patterns look very realistic. In all other aspects the Sigma Cameras a re a real pain. Software, buffer heat development, and all the other little annoyances the LuLa article mentiones.
To my eye the A900 is miles ahead also resolution wise. Downsampling the A900 to 15MP gets equivalent tesolution and clarity. But where SONY really shines is colour. Sigma has a very strange colour behaviour that is only kept in check with subtle and careful development. In puncto noise the A900 is lightyears ahead. Sigma still suffers from colourfading above ISO400 and then appear magenta and green blotches that cannot be cleaned out. The cameras are useless in lowlight and in daylight above ISO 200.
In 2004 the SD10 was anice concept and many bought the camera cause digital was still young and we expected improvements in imagequality and performance within some 4-5 years. However until today, the Foveon chips have not really changed and buying the SD1 for 1500-1800€ would have been a good deed in order to support an alternative technology. By now Foveon is dead.
Sigma decided already last year to start pricing their lenses as expensive as the original Nikon and Canon lenses catapulting them into a diffrent market. Now the sensless decision to price the SD1 into a territory where it doesn’t belong kills their camera line too. These very lonly decisions could well make an end to a once good company.
I changed after Sigma, Canon, Fuji and Nikon gear to SONY and am mostly pleased with the gear as wellas with the images I can produce with it.
To my eye, SONY will dominate the market of the future. Their ideas are fresh, the prices ok and they do not hesitate to throw tradition overboard.
Greets
Michael
Don Cox
10 months ago |The SD15 seems to be a much better camera than the SD14, judging from user comments and images posted on the web. The weird colour problems I see in most SD14 images have gone from the SD15. (They are back again with the SD1.)
I do see a lot of negative criticism of Sigma’s cameras based on obsolete models. They are definitely improving their products, slowly.
(I have never owned a Sigma camera.)
Carl
10 months ago |The colour problem is called metameric error, and is a fundamental issue with the way Foveon sensors separate colour due to crosstalk between the colour channels.
The output of a Foveon sensor is near-monochromatic, and is gained up to reach normal colour levels, which is why the ISO performance will never be as good as an equivalently advanced Bayer sensor (and also why noise is significantly lower in black and white). The slight colour inconsistencies that all digital sensors have to some extent (metameric error) also get amplified by the same process.
All this is just the price that needs to be paid for not using colour bandpass filters. We could argue that the medicine is worse than the disease in this case, though I personally really like the images Foveon sensors put out despite the flaws.
Don Cox
10 months ago |Films, printing and eyes also have metameric errors. It is the result of trying to measure the whole spectrum with just three or four bandpass filters. They are not confined to Foveon-type sensors.
Camera metamerism could be reduced by using more than three colours in the sensors – possibly matching them to the inks of the newer printers. This would help flesh tones particularly.
Pacman
10 months ago |I totally agree on Michael. Kudos!
F
10 months ago |The Sony is a horrible camera when it comes to resolution versus detail.
Doing packaging shots the quality is not usable. Originally we bought the A900 to replace a Leaf Aptus22 which is now 7 years old but there is just now comparison despite the slight resolutions advantage of the Sony.
The Nex 5 is even better because you start with a crisp picture on pixel level.
I just hope that the A900 replacement is not using filters and that Sony has meanwhile learned to make a professional camera.
y
10 months ago |you’re Right.
SRL
10 months ago |I agree that Sony needs to do much more if it hopes to make gains into the professional market, and I’m not a Sony fanboy, but I don’t know what you mean, my Canon and Nikon friends are pretty impressed to see the photos from my Sony a850 with my CZ 135 f/1.8 lens.
And it’s still holding its own now being discontinued with just about any other camera at ISO’s fewer than 400
Daemonius
10 months ago |If you are bit nuts, you can remove AA filter (and IR when you are at it). Should boost details nicely, not sure about moiré though. Theres actually good reason why manufacturers add expensive AA filters (yes AA filters are really not cheap).
I prefer Sony/Minolta colors over pretty much everything else. Except S2 and M9.. but thats different league.
ms
10 months ago |yea… but it’s still a cropped camera costing how much? Thanks but I’ll stick with the 35mm chip and wait for the other manufacturers to transition to their own foveon style chips. Being first to market doesn’t exactly mean you do it best.
Don Cox
10 months ago |“Being first to market doesn’t exactly mean you do it best.”
Exactly. If it did, we would still be shooting Autochromes.
Dummy00001
10 months ago |> [..] the lack of an AA filter shows though. The SD1 clearly resolves more micro-detail.
Shouldn’t that be “… the lack of need for an AA filter …” instead?
Foveon doesn’t need AA – Bayer sensor needs AA. Even with weak AA, demosaicing still eats lots of details and introduces occasional AA artifacts.
Marcohard
10 months ago |Andrea, someone said that you were using Sigma gears. Is that true?
baidu456
9 months ago |Thank you for letting me know your thoughts and comments, they are much appreciated by me!
Scott Kennelly
7 months ago |Froo, what do you mean by a “1.5x resolution advantage” in your post above? In my opinion, the Foveon sensor cameras have a HUGE advantage, to the point that the claims Sigma makes are actually accurate! I have shot my Sigma SD14 against my friend’s Nikon D200 (a 10 megapixel camera with a larger sensor) and found that the photos from my SD14 appear to have finer detail . . . detail that would be more akin to the detail found from a 12 or even a 14 megapixel camera, which is what Sigma claims the SD14 to be (14 megapixels). From my own experience with raw files from the SD1, I find the image quality to be absolutely AMAZING. The raw image files have the same quality as the SD14 raw files, but the resolution is MUCH higher. This makes me think that the SD1 is capable of capturing images equivalent to a 35 or even a 40 megapixel bayer sensor in an APS-C format. We won’t see such sensors for years, but you can get the equivalent in a Sigma camera today. That makes the SD1 well worth the high cost.
If you compare the resolution in the center of these two images, you will see that the SD1 out-resolves the Nikon D3x (a 24 megapixel full-frame camera) by a significant margin. I’m not talking about “barely” creeping ahead of the D3x. I’m talking about kicking its ass.
http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/D3X/FULLRES/D3XhRES6048F.JPG
http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/SD1/FULLRES/SD1hRES4704F.JPG
Remember, do not look at the edges, because you will see the limitations of the lens on the Sigma. For some stupid reason the reviewers used a different lens on the Sigma than they did on the Nikon. Unfortunately, that prevents the two images from being a truly “scientific” comparison. Still, you can see the resolving power of the sensor is off the charts!
That’s resolution, but what about high ISO performance? I’ve seen people say stuff all over the map here, but here is an image from the SD1, which was shot at ISO 800 – YOU tell ME what the SD1 is capable of at high ISO:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/articleImages/MR12/laurenceB.jpg
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/articleImages/MR12/laurence-cu.jpg
As you can see, they come from the review at Luminous-Landscape:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sigma_sd1_review.shtml
Here is a quote from that article:
“As can be seen, ISOs 100 through 800 are excellent.”
I almost never shot above ISO 400 with my Canon 5 D. Whenever shooting at ISO 800 or 1600, I would always be disappointed with the noise. That’s a full-frame camera with only 12 megapixels. The 5 D Mark II is supposed to produce about the same image quality at high ISO. My Nikon D5000 absolutely sucked at ISO 800 and above. From my research, the D5100 and D7000 are about the same. From what I can tell from research about the Sony A55 and Sony A77 cameras, they are no better. If the SD1 can produce excellent results at ISO 800, that is enough for me!
As far as color reproduction is concerned . . . I have very little problem with colors, when shooting in raw mode with my Sigma SD14. I’m sure the SD1 is at least as good, since there has been a vast amount of development since the SD14 was made. With the latest firmware and SPP 5.1, I’m sure the SD1 is producing incredibly good color rendition. In fact, color rendition is where the Foveon sensors have earned their good reputation!
Read a little and see some more samples yourself at Britton’s gallery:
http://photo.brittonrobbins.com/Photography/Equipment/Sigma-SD1/17966269_HLVsc3#1381142862_87qP6ZC
I have not read about a new full-frame sensor Sony becoming available any time soon. When one does come available, will it be more than 32 megapixels? Maybe it will match the resolution of the SD1. I hope so. I am planning to wait a few months before buying the SD1, just to see, but from the looks of the A77, we will not see an APS-C format camera come on the market any time soon, which can compete with the Sigma SD1, as far as image quality is concerned. Of course, for speed and flexibility the A55 already has the SD1 beat.
Not many people talk about dynamic range. I am very impressed with the dynamic range of my Sigma SD14. I have read that the SD1 is better. From my experience in the Sigma Photo Pro software, playing with raw files from the SD1, I believe that to be true. That makes the SD1 a great performer, as far as dynamic range goes. I hope that Sony finally introduces 14 bit color in their next full-frame camera, so it can be competitive with Nikon and Canon cameras in this regard. I don’t know if even that can make the next Sony full-frame camera competitive with the Sigma SD1.