DxOmark sensor test: A77 is as good as Nikon and Canon fullframe cameras!
DxOmark (Click here) just published an extremely interesting Sony A77 sensor test. The A77 sensor has a very large Dynamic range that easily suprasses the results of the Nikon D700 and Canon 5D markII fullframe cameras: “In conclusion, thanks to its capacity to innovate always further and to break the limits of sensor design, Sony is about to bring on the market a very good semi-professional camera body. The next question is the capacity of the lenses to address the challenge of these very small pixels. The DxOMark lens measurements should give us an answer very soon. Last but not least, as the same sensor will be used by the Sony A65 and the Sony NEX 7, we should see some nice reviews very soon. It will be especially interesting to see the NEX 7 results as it doesn’t feature a translucent mirror and should take full advantage of this amazing sensor.”
The real surprise is that the Sony A580 sensor has a similar A77 score. because at High ISO it’s still noticeable better (Click here to see the comparison). I confess I am now very intrigued about how good the Sony NEX-5n can be. And of course as DxOmark said, I expect the Sony NEX-7 to be a tack better than the A77 because of the absence of the semitransparent mirror.
Now it’s up to you to preorder the right camera. I give you the links to all of them 
A77 at Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
A65 at Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
Sony NEX-7 Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
Sony NEX-5n Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
Zeiss 24mm f/1.8 Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
Sony 50mm f/1.8 Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
Sony 55-210mm Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
NEX-5n viewfinder Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
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Comment from Matt: I'm trying to follow along with this dis...
Comment from David: Yawn.. all this measurebating is stupid....
Comment from Rodrigo: Why 24 mpx?
For me, when/if a buy an A77...- Comment from Rodrigo: Could Andrea please put a sign at the to...
zstan
8 months ago |This should shut the haters up. Especially those who like to use DxO marks.
Duarte Bruno
8 months ago |Not when the NEX-C3 is showing even better numbers in some aspects.
Vlad
8 months ago |That means the Nikon V1 beats even FF cameras! Hahahaha.
Tofa
8 months ago |lol!
Doug
8 months ago |LIKE: dynamic range – at least a stop better than the other two
NOT LIKE: high ISO performance – that score is terrible!
The takeaway: in this comparison the Nikon D700 is the winner. Slightly below the A77 in dynamic range, but its high ISO performance blows the other two away. And it’s the winner in the overall score.
Spoon
8 months ago |Just as “terrible” as the best Canon semi pro aps-c camera, the 7d, despite the half a stop light loss. Keep the comparisons realistic.
Kalpurush :)
8 months ago |Comparing a FF with an APS-C ???
Ha! Ha!!
And do you know how much the D700 costs???
No further comments.
Daemonius
8 months ago |New or second/third hand D700?
Here I can get for almost same price either new A77 or second hand D700. In more developed countries (or lets say countries with more friendly Sony pricing) like USA, it will be different..
Carl Garrard
8 months ago |The high iso score is not terrible, it’s average for today’s DSLR’s.
Let’s keep it real k?
C
doug
8 months ago |If, as you say, it’s only average, then you’re acknowledging that there are better DSLRs available. Why would anyone want to buy a merely average DSLR?
LGO
8 months ago |I believe that the DxOMark results are wrongly presented. Here is a step-by-step guide to understand the results:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/734%7C0/(brand)/Sony/(appareil2)/685%7C0/(brand2)/Sony/(appareil3)/441%7C0/(brand3)/Nikon
Click the ff. to better understand the results:
Click Measurement
Click SNR 18&
Click Screen
Thereafter, click any of the following:
Dynamic Range
Tonal Range
Color Sensitivity
The 580 easily beats the A77. The Nikon D700 is way ahead of the Sony A77.
GH
8 months ago |Clicking screen simply compares pixel quality, which is really only useful for scientists. Photographers, who actually have a targeted output, rely on how cameras compare at specific viewing or print sizes.
LGO
8 months ago |“Clicking screen simply compares pixel quality, which is really only useful for scientists.”
Do you really believe this? So pixel quality does not count or matter?
Most want the A77 to perform well. Yet the NEX-7 will do better simply because of better pixel quality sans the translucent mirror. This alone disproves your point.
Please see my reply to this a few posts below.
Steve Jones
8 months ago |It’s the pixel quality of the output that matters. What “print” does is equalise the output size. If a camera A beats camera B it will do so at any output size.
Bear in mind, if you print an A77 and D7000 print at (say) 300 DPI without rescaling the A77 prints will be 50% bigger in area. You simply can’t objectively compare the output of two cameras at two different output sizes. It’s a scientific nonsense.
Mark White
8 months ago |And dxomark is all scientific nonsense then for bothering to test for “screen” instead of just “print”?
BOTH results are relevant if you want to understand how a sensor performs and LGO is correct to point out the other one as well. And the dxomark test results shows that the A77 does not match the Canon and Nikon full frame. Any other conclusion is nonsense.
Jose_P
8 months ago |@ Steve Jones
You were doing well with your explanation until you said that it’s a scientific nonsense. To see how a camera performs without consideration of how many megapixel it has is not scientific nonsense. Instead, it only shows your lack of understanding.
Steve Jones
8 months ago |It’s a scientific nonsense as it’s not standardising the test considerations (which is why DXOmark is reported at a normalised output). Of course they have to measure the “per-pixel” values to derive the standardised one. So it’s not a scientific nonsense to report them, and if you intend to “crop down” to avoid the use of longer lenses, then it’s of some utility. After all, the A77 has 1.4x and 2x “teleconverter” modes which give 12MPiX and 6MPiX respectively. In that case, per-pixel measures could be useful in working out the effects on DR and noise.
However, to repeat, and it’s what I was getting at, comparing two camera systems at different output sizes for things like noise and dynamic ranges is not valid. Comparing “per-pixel” measures of the A77 and A55 is basically comparing an 81% crop (in each direction) from the A77 with a whole frame from the other.
Stone
8 months ago |Steve Jones, your circumlocution only serves to undermine you. Better make up your mind on what you are saying. What is beyond argument is that both measurements are valid. You on the other hand say that one is valid, then that the other is valid, but that only that one is valid? Fail.
Mahmoe
8 months ago |@ Steve Jones
The print size that dxomark used as a reference is a 300dpi 8” x 12”. This size tends to favor higher megapixel camera but screen will show how the camera may fare when printing in much large sizes. In this aspect, understanding the camera’s performance under screen is not only beneficial but necessary. Arguing that one should look at the performance of different cameras on the basis solely of printing to a 300di 8” x 12” is preposterous and grossly misleading.
Mahmoe
8 months ago |This quote here taken by this site from a review at http://nl.fotovideo.nu/reviews/2339/sony-alpha-a77-review is a better indication of the results of dxomark and illustrates that it is helpful to look at the dxomark results in both screen and print.
” The step to use an EVF over an OVF is couragous, though it’s up to the advanced photographer wether it’s a good alternative (in some cases it’s not, e.g. battery usage). The major disadvantage is that the a77 has lots of noise from ISO 3200 and up. We think it’s a pity that Sony didn’t choose to use the 16 megapixel-sensor of the NEX-5N (we also have a review in preparation for that one). Also, compared to the fullframe Canon 5D Mark II, the a77 lacks detail (despite of the additional megapixels).”
Steve Jones
8 months ago |@stone
I rather suspect in you childish one word dismissal of an argument that you clearly don’t understand, you are betraying your lack of understanding of scientific testing. Fortunately some of us were trained to a exacting standards in some of the most prestigious universities in the world.
Stone
8 months ago |Your words speak even as you choose to hide. The last resort of a weak mind is false pretensions and verbal abuse. Fail again.
Abi
8 months ago |this… should translate into a PP heaven… feel free to move your RECOVERY slider in LR :p
Alfonso Cuitiño
8 months ago |haha awesome
Liza
8 months ago |Exactly. IF you don’t account for the difference in megapixels, these low ISO tests are bogus.
Its how dishonest people pretend like great cameras suck.
By their logic, a 1 megapixel camera would have the best low ISO performance!
AlphaSd
8 months ago |Yes but we were expecting more on ISO performance…
Raghav
8 months ago |I think Sony was expecting the same. I remember one of their engineers had said that “this new sensor will perform on par with the A55 or even better.”
zstan
8 months ago |Yes but with this dynamic range, i can underexpose my photo, and pull the levels in PP and still get a clean image.
Duarte Bruno
8 months ago |I believe it’s more like the other way around, you can expose more to the right and still recover the highlights!
Mist
8 months ago |+1
z
8 months ago |Underexposing is generally better in recovering details. You can shoot at 1.3stops less than 5Dm2 an still get same details after editing. That means same detail at 800 ISO with A77 compared to 2000 ISO with 5Dm2. You just need to set -1 1/3 on camera and +1 1/3 on lightroom.
Hypothetically speaking, of course. I still need to wait before my A77 to arrive.
That said, it might appeal to studio and landscape photographer even more.
Steve Jones
8 months ago |It is, of course, better to underexpose than over, as you can never get those clipped highlights back. However, you still want to fill those charge wells as near full as possible as that improves the SNR. Half the exposure and the dynamic range will drop by half a stop due to the relative increase in the noise floor (mostly due to photon shot noise which goes to the square root of the photons received).
Of course it’s not always possible to set aperture and shutter speed to do this. All turning up the ISO does is to amplify the electron charge. What is true is that with the latest range of Sony sensors, rather than turn up the ISO you can underexpose at a lower ISO and “push” the resultant RAW and get much the same result.
The give away on this is the almost straight line inverse relationship between DR and ISO on the new cameras. That implies the Sony sensor does an exceptional job of keeping read noise controlled.
So by all means underexpose a little to avoid clipping highlights – I’ve just come back from a music venue where I dialled in -1 EV as the extreme contrast range caused highlight clipping). However, in more normal environment, if you want the best possible DR do not underexpose. You want as many photons as possible up to the saturation limit of the photosites.
Vlad
8 months ago |(wrong reply)
sonyfan
8 months ago |Not beating nikon d7000 yet
pancanikonpus
8 months ago |meant pawn by D7000
lol = pawn by 5n 
lol…
LGO
8 months ago |The A77 underperforms the Sony A580 by a significant margin.
To get a more accurate “picture” of the relative performance between these two, toggle the measurement results to “screen” instead of the default “print”. Unless one is printing the full photo in a 8″ x 12″ size print, the “screen” setting would give a better indication of what the relative performance between the A77 and A580 (and thus the Nikon D7000) are.
The A77 lags considerably behind the Nikon full-frames when viewing the results under “Screen”. The NEX-7 should show better results but is unlikely to beat the A580, much less the NEX-5N.
ben
8 months ago |Again, please read the reply to your earlier post.
“Picture” analysis is not “more accurate,” since it is only addressing per-pixel quality. Hence the A77 may have less quality per pixel in terms of noise when compared to a camera with fewer megapixels. But, given that it has more megapixels, it can capture more detail, and its increase in per-pixel noise can be largely negated when resized (normalized) with the camera with fewer megapixels.
Results need to be normalized among different cameras before one can even make the judgment of better or worse. Although DxO is calling this process “print,” all it means is that the results have been normalized, while “screen” has not since it involves viewing pixels 1:1 on the monitor, which is almost always unimportant for a published product (whether physically printed or published on the web)
Please stop spreading misinformation.
LGO
8 months ago |I posted this first before posting above where I detailed the steps. Check the time stamp.
It is not my intent to spread disinformation.
Screen is relevant when examining the pixels, specially against of similar or close to the same pixel count (e.g, 5D Mk II, D3x). While the apparent quality of the 24mp sensor may improve when the results are normalized against a lower resolution sensor (e.g, 16mp), the true quality will be revealed when the results are compared to another sensor with the same resolution, specially when printed to a very large size and one is standing close to the print.
Evaluating the sensor’s performance on Screen remains a useful and valid exercise even while doing the same on Print is also true.
Spoon
8 months ago |You don’t seem to understand that the print tab gives you all the information you need to evaluate that. Unless you prefer comparing cameras at non equal displaying sizes (which you would’t if they both have 24 mp), which makes it apples vs oranges. You need a constant.
Mark White
8 months ago |It is you who do not understand that you need to look at BOTH “print” and “screen” tabs to understand how the different cameras perform in relation to the other.
Stone
8 months ago |Somebody makes an effort to help us to understand our cameras better and he gets shouted down. This is not how it should be and only reflects badly on those who did this. Thanks LGO.
Clyde
8 months ago |Maybe the CaNiko’s would have performed better if they had SLT mirrors. Oh no that’s silly. All they need is to change their logo colors to Cinnabar… that should do it.
kaido
8 months ago |i think the links to preorder sites are wrong. but DigitalRev is shipping mine, as we speak!
Bernard
8 months ago |I have little doubts about the sensor. The weak part of the chain is the glass we can put in front. Only the announced 24mm Zeiss prime can possibly match the quality of the sensor. The other E lenses won’t resolve 24MP. Oh and adapters bring their own limitations (size, no auto focus, no real aperture control).
Spoon
8 months ago |Except that an australian website showed that even the kitlens already resolves close to 14% more lpmm than a Canon 7d with a good lens. Which in turn is close to the difference in pixels per axis. Sofar every increase in pixel resolution, has given us measurably more resolution, at every aperture and even with mediocre lenses. See for example photozone.de tests.
Juan
8 months ago |So it’s official….
The high iso performance sucks…?
I’m so disappointed, i don’t think i can buy the a77 anymore.
Concert (low light), and wedding photography are my two fields. I was looking forward to the “hundreds of thousands”. Really, just the huge improvement at iso 3200/6400. But i got nothing.
kev
8 months ago |Worse than the A55 as well!
I wanted the A77′s high ISO performance to be between the A55 and A580 for me to become a buyer. Not good enough for my uses. Shame.
It’s other ratings are impressive though.
Maximus
8 months ago |This is a measurement on pixel base! so its slightly worse than the a55 in the 100% view. But you have to keep in mind that it has 8 MP more (50%).
At the same output size, and this is what matters to me, the a77 will perform better.
Maximus
8 months ago |“As we can see in the comparison, this Lowlight Score is very similar to the A55 which got a 818. This shows that Sony managed to keep the same excellent level of noise despite the reduced size of each pixel on the sensor.”
Duarte Bruno
8 months ago |What are you saying? In the “Print” graphics the A77 is a almost a perfect match with the A55! Absolutely no advantage to A77 except for very low ISOs.
Jonathan
8 months ago |Hay Duarte
I think the A77 has a much high resolution so crop factors will be allot better and faster shutter speed and as you mentioned the lower ISO’s. There is also ALTO of benefits on the A77 its self over the A55, why are people stuck on thinking like wanting a 0.5 stop increase in ISO performance it’s really not that much at the end of the day and if ISO is very important for your needs I would suggest waiting for the next full frame camera as I have a feeling we are going to see some great ISO improvements and might be just what you are after
Spoon
8 months ago |So you’re saying a quarter of a stop (the difference between what you wanted and the real performance) is the dealbreaker? Any idea how small of a difference that is?
Kalpurush :)
8 months ago |@ Juan
Hei, it’s the person behind the camera who does the magic, not the cameraitself!!!
albin
8 months ago |I do wedding with a a200 and I am still able to get bucketload of details at high iso.
6400 is more than you will need in weddings anyway. Get a fast lens and away you go. No worries
the noise you get is easily sorted with lightroom so really this isn’t an issue.
I’ll take DR over noise anytime
Nawaf
8 months ago |The 2 year old 7D is still better than this in low light, I’m surprised.
kev
8 months ago |The A77 sandwiched between the Sony A500 and the old NEX5 as well. Not good enough.
Vlad
8 months ago |I’ll take the DR.
Spoon
8 months ago |No, it’s not better, it performs equal in overall noise, but the 7d is much noisier in deep shadows.
R1
8 months ago |What is there to be surprised about? It has more MP than the 7D.
Spoon
8 months ago |Some people can’t seem to understand a simple graph. It’s the same SNR at say ISO 6400 at similar display size, as a 7d. And that’s including half a stop light loss, so the sensor itself is half a stop better than the one in the 7d in this regard.
mXim
8 months ago |ISO performance really sucked, but I am not sure how this translates into real world results.
Will the noise be less visible since images will always be downsized more than competitor’s images?
DXOMark is evaluated based on RAW files. Are A77 RAW files supported by software at this time?
Pacman
8 months ago |HOw about NEX-7?
Pacman
8 months ago |ops i’m just too excited.
Jose_P
8 months ago |Me too!
Snapperbox
8 months ago |I wonder why all the fuss about low light performance nowadays.
Go get a night vision goggle if you want to see in the dark.
sonyfan
8 months ago |Because if there is poor light sensitivity the image will be grainy noisy and some times unusable ,simple as that
Bluepixel
8 months ago |+1
kev
8 months ago |You obviously don’t shoot sports in varying light conditions do you? *sigh*
Maximus
8 months ago |This is a measurement on pixel base! so its slightly worse than the a55 in the 100% view. But you have to keep in mind that it has 8 MP more (50%).
At the same output size, and this is what matters to me, the a77 will perform better.
“As we can see in the comparison, this Lowlight Score is very similar to the A55 which got a 818. This shows that Sony managed to keep the same excellent level of noise despite the reduced size of each pixel on the sensor.”
Jonathan
8 months ago |Hay Maximus
I think your point is very valid increasing the MP count so much and managing to keep the ISO is a great achievement! Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be to downside the A77’s image size to a comparable MP count as this will increase the ISO ‘rating’ when pixel peeping?
Dave Cox
8 months ago |+1
You wouldn’t compare IQ of 24 MP vs 12 or even 16 MP so why ISO? Some of the comments on here are ridiculous. Pixel vs pixel ISO is worse, sure, but to see pixel resolution on a 24MP print the print size would be 4 metres wide. I think the science is getting in the way of common sense here. How many people print a 3200 ISO image larger than A3? Really?
Dave Cox
8 months ago |Well said Jonathan.
You wouldn’t compare IQ of 24 MP vs 12 or even 16 MP so why ISO? Some of the comments on here are ridiculous. Pixel vs pixel ISO is worse, sure, but to see pixel resolution on a 24MP print the print size would be 4 metres wide. I think the science is getting in the way of common sense here. How many people print a 3200 ISO image larger than A3? Really?
El Aura
8 months ago |Dave, with the A77 you have a single camera that gives the same 16 MP high-ISO performance as the A55 but a higher resolution base ISO performance.
And most high-ISO images are not displayed or printed at full resolution (ie, they are printed and displayed smaller). You don’t get the A77 to have a 24 MP high-ISO camera, you get to to have 6 MP high-ISO camera and a 24 MP base-ISO camera in one package.
Carlos Echenique
8 months ago |Snapperbox,
the reason for all of the fuss about low-light performance is that some folks (myself included) have to shoot in situations where we have no control over the lighting (or the time of day the shoot has to occur). In my case, it is ballet and other dance performances (which is harder to shoot than football, BTW). If you want to see what the fuss is take a look at the photos in this gallery
http://photos.echenique.com/Dance/International-Ballet-Fest-2011/broward/19117135_PxFJWm
All were shot low-light, high-ISO and during live performances.
Gabriel
8 months ago |I can tell all those images were processed with noise reduction, later in post processing. You can always do that!
If the low-light performance is better than my A850, then that’s already an improvement.
Jakob Røjel
8 months ago |For us living up north the sun is a rare guest during fall and winter, so high ISO is an advantage.
We have the A900 for perfect studio (and other full lighted) work .
Error: No Name
8 months ago |It is good for shooting fast moving kids at parties or indoors without resorting to a flash. Poor low light performance of my current system is what has me in the market for something different.
zahidhasan
8 months ago |Disappointed about the ISO performance.
pancanikonpus
8 months ago |i not understand one thing as recently i saw the comparison in high ISO among 5n-5d2-gh2-a77-60d; since 5d2 ISO in dxo hit ~2000 versus 5n (still unknow dxo mark), are we conclude 5n will also hit >2000 mark? if not, assume 5n = a580 (~1100) in dxo, how a lower dxo iso mark camera perform better than 5d2?
fongios
8 months ago |lol yeah and what firmware did they test btw? anyway numbers doesnt mean anything u have to test the a77 with ur lenses and see how it works. it is still a very young camera with an huge captor and im pretty sure it will need some testing before finding some good lenses fitting for this cam.
Carl
8 months ago |13.2 EV is nothing to sneeze at.
john
8 months ago |Sony needs to crank out an A57= A65 body with NEX5n sensor
AND A67= A77 body with NEX 5n sensor.
This would satisfy all the high ISO moaners.
pancanikonpus
8 months ago |its meant whole marketing campaign is a failure, same goes to sony imaging engineering
sony should not roll out 5n >.<
john
8 months ago |No it’s called choice
Like Nikon D3- D3x
Same body different sensor for different purposes
Although Sony shouldn’t chargetwice asm much for the higher MP body like Nikon does.
AT
8 months ago |Nex-5N and a55 use already the same sensor.
Bill
8 months ago |I’d prefer my A67=A65 body with NEX 5n sensor, for its lower cost and useful features, and A75=A77 body with NEX 5n sensor. But then it would mean that the 24mp sensor is a total failure for Sony. Is Sony going to swallow its ego and do the right thing?
Don Cox
8 months ago |Sony will most likely continue with research and development until they can deliver a 24 Mpixel APS-C sensor with better low light performance.
It isn’t likely that they have hit a brick wall yet, but these things take time.
dps
8 months ago |Aren’t the Canon and Nikon FF cameras the Sony A77 is being compared to almost 3 and 4 years old? Aren’t the two FF cameras about to be upgraded in the next few months (as well as new offerings from Canon and Nikon in cropped frame camera DSLRs)? The A77 is a great camera, but the next 6 months will bring newer cameras in FF and Cropped Frame arenas that will serve to set the bar higher again. New cameras have about 15 minutes of fame, so Sony better enjoy it while it can, as the Digital Camera wheel continues to turn…
Kalpurush :)
8 months ago |Why you are comparing an APS-C sensor camera with FF cameras???
Clifton
8 months ago |still significantly better than the A700, which is the most important factor to me. If you want the best high ISO, sell up and buy a Nikon.
The DxO ratings seem far from conclusive to me anyway, the A850 gets a whopping 1415 on the ISO, yet in the tests with the beta A77 firmware, it was roughly on par with the A77.
Carl
8 months ago |I assume the tests were done with NR turned off. The noise reduction built in to the 850/900 isn’t very good.
Steve Jones
8 months ago |It’s done on RAW data, and, apart from Sony’s unwise introduction of NR into A700 RAWs (which was backed out in later firmware releases), NT doesn’t come into DXOmark results. Although, it should be noted, DXO note some strange behaviours that camera manufacturers do get up to – especially with regard to mapping indicated ISO to measured ISO.
LuckyNumberSlevin
8 months ago |Cant wait to see the new nikon bodies with improved sony sensors
Jonathan
8 months ago |I might be wrong in saying this (correct me please). But if the camera is rated with an ISO score of say 800 to be a single stop better it needs to be 1600? So this means the 7D is about the same and the D7000 is around 0.45 stops better at ISO which does not seem allot?
What is impressive then is when comparing to the full frame camera’s the 5D is only just over 1 stop better and the D700 has around 1.4 stops better performance than the A77’s APC sensor. This Seems very impressive… I can’t wait to see what Sony’s new Full frame sensor will be. I think I’m going to purchase one of these A77’s to have a play around with it (I hope they add tethered support via firmware update though as this is something I want to get into)
Also another thing to take into account (although not as important and not really a fair comparison but for a starter it might be) is the kit lens is now F2.8 meaning you have a number of stops better performance with the stock lens so when comparing say the A77 stock kit with the D7000 or 7D kits the A77 should product much better low light pictures out of the box for new comers.
Sahaja
8 months ago |You are right there is only one EV difference between ISO 800 and ISO 1600
An f/2.8 kit lens is only about half a stop faster than an f/3.5 kit lens (and one stop faster than an f/4.0 kit lens). Still it is something. Unfortunately the kit lenses are not constant aperture throughout the zoom range.
With all that resolution it is going to take exceptional lenses and technique to get the most out of this sensor. A 12mp sensor on on a full frame camera (like the D700) is likely to be far more forgiving of lenses and photographer.
Jonathan
8 months ago |I believe allot of kit lenses are around the F3.5 to F5.6 range meaning they range between half a stop but when zoomed they are a full 2 stops slower than the new Sony Kit lens which is a constant F2.8 through the entire zoom range which will basically give you a much better low light performance boost and quality!
Sahaja
8 months ago |Under Type: Dx0 lists the A77 as an “Entry-level DSLR” but the A580, which is half the price, as a “Semi-Pro DSLR”.
Pablo
8 months ago |Seems like the NEX 5N is THE HIGH ISO KING for now :>
Clyde
8 months ago |Never ever had a client tell me the images are too noisy. Never a complaint from anyone about noise. No print ever ruined because of noise.
Pixel peeping is a dangerous habit.
I truly believe the noise argument is as much of a marketing leverage as mghz is for computers. Real world advantage is unseen.
Now I understand people have the right to complain about anything they want. In this way we challenge manufacturing to always do better. In this way competition thrives.
But for me, low light images don’t look right without a little noise in them. Making them too smooth seems artificial somehow. For me, low light images need a certain degree of noise to properly relate the atmosphere they were captured in. But the photographic pallet changes over time. Perhaps noise free images are the look to pursue for everything.
But what’s funny to me is thinking how someone might demand ultra smooth noise free captures but choose an imperfect lensbaby technique to purposely degrade image quality for the sake of effect. We togs certainly are a finicky bunch. It’s all good!
I hope everyone gets everything they ask for in a camera.
zstan
8 months ago |Problem is, people who complain usually do not have clients and are mostly hobbyist.
Don Cox
8 months ago |There is quite a lot of noise in the human retina in low light. This may be why a grainy photo of a low light scene (the photo being viewed in good light) looks more natural.
Nawaf
8 months ago |It’s fine for people who print but most of us these days just look at pictures on a pc or tablet. ISO 6400 is unusable to me with the 7D and I only use primes now because of this. When it’s too noisy it robs me of the finer details and colors.
Nikon is doing a good job at this and NASA knows this too.
rishio
8 months ago |Well said. We need a term similar to bokeh but for high ISO. Bokeh is about the quality of the out of focus area of a scene. I’m more interested in the quality of the grains when Sony cams are at high ISO. I like it grainy with a rough texture and not splotchy and smooth.
Wheelus
8 months ago |I continue to be annoyed by all of the super high ISO freaks. Use whatever camera works in Finland for your midnight rock concerts. If that is your 16 MP Sony A55, then use it. But when you go to Provence to do scenic photography in the summer, let’s hear praises about the ability to shoot at ISO 50 and 80. I never realized that there were so many vampires in this world shooting dance recitals in Forks, Washington. Maybe all future camera reviews should be tested for their ability to shoot infrared. People, get a life, use remote flash, or use the best camera for each situation. Really, I don’t think that there is any law on any of the continents that says that you can only own one camera body.
I know, I will hear the tired reply that I can’t do this and I can’t do that and whine, whine, whine. But again, I pose the question, “How many super ISO freaks are just too damn lazy to set up properly for your photoshoot?”
Mandrake
8 months ago |Having grain is one thing, losing sharpness because of poor sensitivity to light in another. It’s all about exposure.
Robby
8 months ago |ISO is of paramount importance in situations where you have no control over light.
Have you ever shot a wedding in a dark church (where you can’t use flash)? ISO 1600 is the bare minimum with a 2.8 lens.
What about any indoor concert/music/ballet/event where people move. Flash in this case is also not an option. If the people on stage are very active, then ISO gets pushed very high to get 250/sec+ shutter speeds in-order to freeze action.
With that said, i ordered an a77. I’m going to try to make it work… hope Sony will make one of the a99x FF cameras next year a low light/ISO monster.
GH
8 months ago |I get this, but it seems like you should have already purchased a D700 years ago. Nikon already makes two great how iso cameras. Why not buy one?
Kalpurush :)
8 months ago |SAR if full of trolls now a days – using SAR to sell Nikon cams!
GH
8 months ago |Uh, I’ve shot Sony DSLR and NEX for 5 years, and I’ve never owned a Nikon camera. The D3s, and, to a lesser extent, D700, are still the cameras to beat if ultimate high ISO is the goal. I’m not personally interested in such a thing.
Sahaja
8 months ago |“ISO is of paramount importance” – so maybe you should have invested in a D3s and some fast prime lenses.
Looking at the DxO scores, an A580 might be a little better than the A77 in this regard. Maybe get one as a backup. A tripod or monopod might also help.
Jonathan
8 months ago |Hi Robby
I agree with what you are saying but it sounds like you might benefit more from the full frame system perhaps? The larger sensor should offer you great benefits for shooting in low light and events you have suggested above. I personally shoot more landscapes (day and night but with tripod of cause), portraits.etc so APC is great for my needs.
I think the resolution achieved by Sony in the A77 is amazing for an APC size sensor and to keep ISO performance close to older 16MP sensors is quite an amazing achievement I think. Perhaps what Sony should now do is not increase the MP so much with the next full frame camera but use the newer technology’s they have to increase the MP slightly but use it to increase the ISO performance which I think would suit allot of users such as yourself?
SonyA77
8 months ago |Robby, if high ISO is your thing you are with the wrong manufacturer. Nikon have been doing high ISO for years and it sounds like you need a FF Nikon.
I want an APS-C sensor, low ISO and 24mpix for huge cropping. Sounds like the A77 fills that gap nicely!
Clyde
8 months ago |Robby “Have you ever shot a wedding in a dark church”… “What about any indoor concert/music/ballet/event where people move.”
Robby, yes I have… countless times through 30 years of client shooting. Never a complaint about noise ever…
Wedding albums generally print no larger than 12×12… a print order from a Ballet or indoor Basketball game is generally no larger than 11×17… On print, and small web images… 3200 ISO on a 10mp a200 is no problem. It’s never once been questioned by anyone. You’re way way ahead of the game with an a77.
Pixel peeping makes us see things that never manifest in real world shooting conditions. These issues just don’t transfer to print orders. The high ISO noise argument is a marketing hype plain and simple.
We should not act as though every shot we produce will need Museum Grade quality at 36×48 shot at 3200 iso. It’s just unrealistic and not needed at all.
SonyA77
8 months ago |The voice of sanity…
Esa Tuunanen
8 months ago |I guess Marketing Pixel maniacs don’t have to listen that?
Peter
8 months ago |+1
Scot
8 months ago |When you want cute pictures of the kids running around indoors, the results at 1/8s iso 800 are worthless. Having good results at 1/64s iso 6400 becomes very useful.
Clyde
8 months ago |And you can get that with practically every Alpha ever made. How large are you printing these photos that they make people cringe and whisper “too noisy”. My family photo album is 4×6 and 5×7… Photos on wall are 8×12 to 16×20… Most shot at very high ISO on very low mp cameras… They look great.
Sahaja
8 months ago |Yes because some internet expert (and Nikon fan) says that low noise at high ISO is the most important thing nearly everyone else seems to repeat it like a flock of tame parrots. Or maybe Nikon’s PR department have done a great job convincing people.
Nikon have always prioritized news & sports photographers – and for them the ability to shoot at high iso is a good thing. However Nikon so far can’t seem to produce an affordable camera with a high resolution sensor (except maybe the D7000) which is often what you want for studio, landscape, portrait and everyday photography.
Chad
8 months ago |Wheelus,
I’ll forgive you for not knowing of what you speak. As a photographer that shoots everything from editorial to mainly low light concert work, high ISO is important. Remote flash is a ridiculous notion for stage work and simply not allowed by most acts.
As a NEX owner, I would love to buy into the Sony Alpha platform, believe it. But the reality is that Canon can give me a camera that does well at low ISO and excellent at high, thus enabling me to use one camera body for all my professional work. To invest in another platform just for low ISO capabilities that won’t be readily visible (compared to the difference in high ISO performance) is a non-starter.
What I’m tired of is not the “reply that I can’t do this and that” but the people that have no tolerance or understanding for how others shoot.
Jonathan
8 months ago |Chad I might be wrong hear but from what I’ve seen Canon has fallen a little behind in ISO performance in the last few years have they not (especially in the APC world)? I think it sounds like you could benefit from Full frame as well and perhaps the next round of camera’s from Sony and the other players are going to be interesting times for us all as I’m also interested in having a full frame body in the future to get into low light photography.
mike_2008
8 months ago |High iso on the A77 performs effectively the same as the top range canon aps-c camera, the 7D; so why are you saying canon is better?
You get the added resolution, DR and bit depth at low iso too, so it would seem to any neutral observer than the A77 knocks the 7D for six… yet you claim theother way around. What gives?
Clyde
8 months ago |Chad, have you ever had a client complain about too much noise? Has noise ever prevented you from publishing an image or making a print sale… ever? Even with old equipment or 1600 Film… has too much noise ever stopped a sale or been the reason that you didn’t get the contract?
Wheelus
8 months ago |I guess that I think more out of the box than you do. Do you really need to shoot stage work during the performance? Why can’t you do it during the dress rehearsal where you can control the light and get much better photographs? Can’t use flash during a wedding? How many of photographs of a wedding are during the wedding ceremony. Aren’t most of them before and after the wedding when you can use controlled lighting and the setting is controlled?
As a professional are you really working with only one camera body? I would think that anyone working with a $5000 Canon would have a $1200 backup. I would make sure that backup would do some things that my primary body could not do.
As Clyde says, what size of prints are you making? Are they 8X10, 11X14, 13X19? I would think that most of your clients rarely go above that size and never ask, “But what does the print look like at 100X magnification.”
If I purchase an A77/65 I will know what its limitations are, and if I need more I will purchase a full frame A99 when it is available.
I continue to be amazed that photographers for over 100 years were able to shoot stage performances, weddings, and sporting events with ISOs of 400 and less. Again, I contend that those who think that they can’t live without super ISO are just too lazy to set up the tripod, shoot flash, or think out of the box when it comes to a photoshoot. They want to walk into the room, shoot for five minutes, and leave.
john
8 months ago |It’s not always about shooting in low light that you need high ISO
Sometimes you need high shutter speed 1/2500+ to almost stop the wings of clearwing hawk moths/humming birds/sports etc.
Even with a 400f5.6 wide open on a sunny day this requires ISO 1600
Wheelus
8 months ago |What size of prints would you make?
dk
8 months ago |The issue John describes would show up in a 4×6 inch print.
Clyde
8 months ago |I cannot believe that for a single second. I’ve got five photographers shooting a200′s at 1600 iso and sell 4×6 prints to happy customers all day long never a complaint. They purchase enlargements up to 16×24 and never ever complain. Shot with a little old Tamron 200-400 f5.6.
john
8 months ago |It doesn’t matter what so ever what size I print.
What matters is that to shoot wide open I need ISO 1600 minimum to get those shutter speeds.
If I want to stop the lens down to say F8 to get more feather detail and DOF that could end up being 3200.
Its about getting the capture.
I’m not complaining about noise just the fact that high ISO is a need for others than those that shoot in nightclubs/concerts/bars.
If Sony had unlimited flash sync that could be a solution but its only 1/250 without SSS.
Not great for 400 mm hand held
Oh and flash sucks anyway.
Tripod? that wont increase my shutter speed.
Oh and tripods suck as well.
Steve Jones
8 months ago |If you are using flash as the primary light source SSS is completely inconsequential. The duration of the flash is very, very short indeed. Much shorter than the shutter exposure time. Because of this very short flash, image stabilisation is an irrelevance for flash-dominated photos.
Zstan
8 months ago |But noise would not be as apparent under good lighting conditions even if you use high iso….
Mandrake
8 months ago |I hope Nikon does something better with the sensor. ISO 800 puts it in m4/3 class. Way too low for my work, I would take the 5N over the A77 at this point. There is no way I would replace a 5D or D700 with it unless I did strictly studio work.
Mandrake
8 months ago |90% of my work is done with natural lighting. I know I’m not alone. A score of ISO 800 makes this camera unusable when I need to shoot a MLB game at iso 5000 to keep my shutter up.
mugen
8 months ago |A77 is perfect LOW ISO camera – Kudos to Sony for this !
Nice to see ISO 50 and 80, I like this approach, more than some of the old cameras without even ISO 100.
mike_2008
8 months ago |It looks like it will be a very fine landscape camera, with the possibility for canon 7D quality for sports too… not too shabby.
grumps
8 months ago |The statement is wrong an misleading! I don’t see the A77 being as good as the FF competition. The ISO part accounts for a lot. Actually all the figures need to be up there in fact and any figure which is by contrast far out will show noticeable difference. This is my experience from owning and using a lot of cameras regularly. So if you say as good up to a certain point, that might be more understandable.
Daemonius
8 months ago |On monitor or print?
Cause if you print A77 and D700 at same size (DxOmark is using A4 – 8 mpix print), then you will see that SNR is same, just with plenty more details in A77. Though Canon 5DMK2 will be better, just good luck with getting some decent colors out of it.
Clyde
8 months ago |You’re right Daemonius… it just doesn’t transfer to print images or small web res galleries at all.
Sahaja
8 months ago |Let’s not pretend – the real competition for the A77 is other crop-sensor cameras not full frame cameras. In comparison with other APS-C cameras the A77 scores pretty well, has extra resolution, good dynamic range and other features. (And don’t forget that, at only half the price, the A580 also scores well.)
Compared to other current full frame cameras at low to moderate ISO’s Sony’s A900 is still very competitive ~ especially when you take price into consideration. It is true that at really high ISOs Nikon’s D3s currently seems to beat everything else hands down. But then take into consideration that many of Nikon’s fast prime lenses are not stabilized – so, if you are not shooting rapidly moving subjects, handheld you might be able to use the A900 at a slower shutter speed and shoot at a lower ISO. The gap then becomes much narrower.
By sometime in the first part of next year Nikon, Canon and Sony will probably all have announced new full frame camera models – it will be interesting to see where things lie after that.
zstan
8 months ago |Don’t forget the Nikon D3s is only 12 megapixels…
Daemonius
8 months ago |Well, everything as expected. Whats really interesting for me is metamerism index, 86 points under “natural” light and 82 under artificial light.
To compare D700 has 83/83 (natural/artificial – apparently well calibrated camera), and 5DMK2 has 80/76.
And direct competitor Canon 7D? Crappy 78/73. Which really isnt good.
What does it mean? Quite simply, more accurate colors you have, easier to get pleasing skin tones. And good colors overall, metamerism index is simply how much camera colors are different from perfect 100% accurate.
Best currently is still Sony A900 with 87/82, for example Canon 1Ds MK3 has similar color accuracy to Sony A77.
If they did everything right, A77 will be pretty good studio camera. And retouching photos will be fun with 24 mpix and high color accuracy.
Björn Utpott
8 months ago |The NEX-7, despite using the same sensor as the A77, may not have quite as high dynamic range at base ISO. The lowest selectable sensitivity on the A77 is 50, compared to 100 on the NEX-7. Of course it could end up being the same measured ISO that’s labelled differently, but that remains to be seen.
Dennis
8 months ago |Look at the effective ISO measurements at DxOMark:
A77 ISO 50 = real ISO 63
A77 ISO 100 = real ISO 80
So the two really aren’t that far apart from each other. I suspect that the sensors base sensitivity is ISO 100 (real ISO). However, the translucent mirror eats a little of that, so you have to increase the gain a little in order to get something close to effective ISO 100. Hence, at ISO 100 setting on the camera, the chip is effectively working above its base ISO.
At a setting of ISO 50, it seems there is no extra gain enabled, the sensor seems to work at base ISO, with 1/3 of light being lost to the translucent mirror.
The NEX-7 doesn’t have the semitransparent mirror, so when the chip is working at base sensitivity (ISO 100), you really get that base sensitivity. Therefore, I expect that the measurements of NEX7 at ISO 100 will be equal to the measurements of A77 at ISO 50.
Björn Utpott
8 months ago |Dennis, I hadn’t taken the effect of the semi-transparent mirror into account. Your reasoning and conclusions make perfect sense.
decato
8 months ago |Yes, exactly.
We have an ND filter built-in with an a77!
Stone
8 months ago |As an upcoming NEX-7 owner, this is yet the best way to present the “benefit” of the SLT in the A77. Bravo!
Steve Jones
8 months ago |The only reason you can have a base ISO of 50 (which is a measured 63) is that the SLT mirror acts like a very mild ND filter. Take that out of the equation and the base ISO of the sensor is about 100. In other words, you can expect the NEX-7 to offer about the same DR at its base 100 ISO as the A77s 50 (actually 63) ISO.
The reason that the NEX-7 can’t offer a 50 ISO setting is that it will blow highlights as the charge wells will saturate in bright areas.
Jonathan
8 months ago |I’m not understanding this whole ISO argument that much we are talking about Canon being 0.07 stops better and the Nikon around 0.45 stops better? This does not seem like allot? Also when you take into consideration the SLT system that is causing a loss of between 1/3 and 2/3 stops so we can benefit from some of the other great functions the camera offers along with a much higher resolution sensor it seems the new Sony Sensor is a great achievement and might just be the best APC sensor on the market right now? People shooting sports/low light why not look at Full frame?
ItsaChris
8 months ago |So the D700 5d II and D7000 have better SNR at all ISOs
They show better DR after iso 200. sony is only holding a lead at what looks to be ISO 75 and 60 iso
and the D700 5d II and D7000 have better tonal range and color selectivity at all ISOs
not to mention the native sharpness improvements you see with larger sensors and you want to call it as good as. (huge win by your title.)
The a77 seems to have a very nice sensor and sony had been doing a great job with sensors in the past few years and I like to see the improvement from ISO 200 – 50. But it is in no way as good as the FF cameras you showed nor as good as the D7k in pure IQ (just close).
I am sure the nex-7 will show results that bring it right along side the D7k in performance.
Biff
8 months ago |Cool!
Now you Sony meatheads will have the best shots of your mailboxes, cats, a tree branch and more. The rest of us will unfortunately continue to get paid to shoot, be in galleries, publications, etc.
Go Sony!!
sabunyuma
8 months ago |It was funnier the first time.
JS
8 months ago |aww, innit that cute Biff wuvs his canikon…I guess getting paid to shoot and displayed in galleries is only possible with those two, but wait, my camera has an orange Greek letter on it….I better not let my clients or the galleries I’ve exhibited in see that!
SLTPro
8 months ago |Speak for yourself s**thead. My clients regularly pay 4-5k to fly me around the world to shoot their wedding using Sony cams. We have a couple of things you useless Canikon w***ers will never have and it’s something that gives my images way more wow factor than my Canon colleagues, given the same shot.
Zeiss AF optics and Minolta bokeh. So shove that up your a*s troll
SLTPro
8 months ago |Speak for yourself Biff (what sort of name is that!!?). My clients regularly pay 4-5k to fly me around the world to shoot their wedding using Sony cams. We have a couple of things you useless Canikon w***ers will never have and it’s something that gives my images way more wow factor than my Canon colleagues, given the same shot.
Zeiss AF optics and Minolta bokeh. So shove that up your a*s troll
SLTPro
8 months ago |Speak for yourself Biff (what sort of name is that!!?). My clients regularly pay 4-5k to fly me around the world to shoot their wedding using Sony cams. We have a couple of things you average shooting Canikon trolls will never have and it’s something that gives my images way more wow factor than my Canon colleagues, given the same shot.
Zeiss AF optics and Minolta bokeh. So shove that up your trolling hole
SLTPro
8 months ago |Speak for yourself Biff (what sort of name is that!!?). My clients regularly pay 4-5k to fly me around the world to shoot their wedding using Sony cams. We have a couple of things you average shooting Canikon trolls will never have and it’s something that gives my images way more wow factor than my Canon colleagues, given the same shot.
Zeiss AF optics and Minolta bokeh. So enjoy your $100 high school soccer comissions with you Canon biff.
AT
8 months ago |We have to consider the camera with all its features, not the sensor ! Continuous PDAF even in video mode, 12 fps, iso 50 capability, …
Clyde
8 months ago |I’d like to know if anyone ever missed a print sale or lost a job or missed a contract because of too much noise or grain in their photos. Go back to the film days even… your entire career as a photographer… has anyone EVER suffered client rejection because of too much noise?
Choose any camera you want and any print size you want… Have you EVER lost cash because of too much noise?
ItsaChris
8 months ago |short answer no (long answer yes bc I had to rent a MF camera). In fact most of all my work is done with an older camera. but that is not why I made a comment about the a77 IQ but because how the admin presented his post (and how his post have been increasingly provocative (fan boyish)).
I think all DSLR cameras provide more than acquitted IQ if used with in there limits.
Slazo
8 months ago |It is indeed remarkable to give 8 additional megapixels and still be at par with A55. All those high ISO freaks, read what the scores imply at DXO mark. The difference is not even half a stop. Stop whining, I’d say learning to hand hold your camera better might give you a complete stop advantage and here you are cribbing about 0.1 of a stop ?? Learn to relate numbers to real life and GET A LIFE
Clyde
8 months ago |We can’t complain if others require our Sony’s to be equal to competition in every regard. It is their right and it keeps Sony on her toes. But we have every right to ask of them if those concerns ever affected their bottom line in real life shooting environments for clients and publication. Has anyone ever lost cash because of too much noise?
Digicams reached a level of quality publication a very long long time ago. I have full page magazine covers and fashion editorials shot with 3mp cameras. Never a complaint. Never a whisper or a hint of dissatisfaction from any client. Never a bride complaining. Never an indoor sports client complaining. Never a mention of too much noise from anyone ever.
Nawaf
8 months ago |Not everyone sells photographs for a living. So we have different needs and I don’t know why people are upset that we are pointing out one shortfall, which isn’t bad at all.
Get over it people the camera sucks at high ISO’s! Big deal so does the 7D and I can take good pictures with it. The A77 excels in other areas too so it’s great, but I wish they worked on the low light ability of the camera.
This would have helped the sports and wildlife photographers in some situations.
I hate noisy pictures on a HD screen with no magnification what so ever!
Slazo
8 months ago |The problem is not that people are complaining. The problem is that they are whining. To say that ISO could have been better, perhaps a stop better is OK but to say that the current ISO performance sucks ?? Having the same noise at 8 extra MP sucks ?? That is when you have to draw a line between wishing/complaining and trolling/whining
Nawaf
8 months ago |I get that and I know people do whine a lot here. When I got my camera I knew the disadvantages of buying it, I deal with it.
You start by acknowledging them first then you buy what suits you. I’m sure many still buy first and end up disappointed.
Don’t get upset because people express their opinions. When people reply to every negative post it does sound like whining too.
Clyde
8 months ago |Don’t get me wrong… I encourage everyone to voice their concerns no matter how small. I desire for Sony to lead in all areas, including noise.
My point is simply that it’s not as bad as to make any difference in any type of publication other than 100% screen comparisons. Perhaps your eyes are better than mine. But I just don’t see the differences in real world shooting… pro or not.
Sahaja
8 months ago |If you are making serious money from your photography, buy the best camera for the work in hand. I know someone who years ago paid for a new Linhof panorama camera with one shot. But otherwise, for an APE-C camera at $2K the A77 is overall a pretty compelling package.
SonyA77
8 months ago |Well yes, that’s the point really. The people complaining about high ISO are the very people that’ll be putting their images up on flickr to be viewed on un-calibrated monitors by people who no nothing about ISO noise.
The vast majority of people viewing your tiny web images could not care less whether the D7000 is “better” or not.
PhotoNut
8 months ago |Rubbish article. The referenced data shows the opposite of the article title.
For anyone who shoots indoors or in low light, the A77 is worse than cheaper recent APS-C cameras like the A580 or NEX5N
Wheelus
8 months ago |Rubbish comment. Please read my second comment above.
SonyA77
8 months ago |No it isn’t. I would MUCH prefer to shoot inside with the A77 EVF than the crappy OVF on the A580! Using fast glass there will be ZERO ISO difference between the images.
Wirralpix
8 months ago |I’ve shot two weddings with the A700 at ISO 1600 and the B&G were extremely pleased with the results. Although I was worried there were no complaints of noisy images so I’ll take the A77 improved ISO performance any day.
Photography is full of compromises and you have to know the limits of your gear. Where the A77 may not rock at concerts (excuse the pun) it excels in other areas which is why I own one. It suits my photography.
Look at the whole package on offer and it’s impressive.
Clyde
8 months ago |Yeah… I know… it’s just not apparent in the real world. We’ve created a ghost that no one can see other than at 100% screen view. The clients just don’t know or care.
I’ve never had an Art Director reject an image because of noise.
john
8 months ago |Funny I remember a few years ago hearing stock photos were rejected from photogs using Sony cams. Reason given….too much noise. When the EXIF data was faked to mask the Sony file name suddenly they were accepted.
Pascal645
8 months ago |I feel humbled! So many people seem to print 40 inch wide pictures of dark things in dark places with no tripod!
Dave Cox
8 months ago |+10000
EXACTLY the point these pixel peepers are missing.
Cliff
8 months ago |I strongly believe that a “sister” model to the A77, the A76 with the 16mp sensor would outsell the A77.
Would YOU buy a Sony A76 with all the 77′s features excpept that it uses the amazing 5n sensor? Damn..I would.
Matt
8 months ago |The A55 and A35 use mostly the same sensor as the 5N. What makes you think it is any better than the A77? The advantage is the lack of translucent mirror on 5N, K5, A580, D7000, C3. Expect an A75 with 5N sensor to perform very similarly to A35 and A55, which other than being 8MP less than A77 will be much the same. Oh except DN seems to be slightly affected by SLT as well, so expect it to be less on your made up A75.
As far as I can tell, NEX7 (without mirror) will be the performance leader in APS-C ALL factors considered. That is until Pentax/Nikon get their hands on it and tweak it bit a-la K5/D7000 – not that there is a significant difference.
Rodrigo
8 months ago |I’m extremely pleased that THE point being raised is basically high iso performance. After all the “24 mpx is too much” and all that stuff we come to the point were it doesn’t shoot well at 6400 handheld with crappy lighting. When I get my A77 or &5 (or maybe both) it’ll more than fulfill all my needs (mostly birds, nature, landscape, ruins).
Is it the best camera? No. Could it be better? Yes. Does it take astonishing real-life on-print at human viewing sizes? Yes.
Don’t like it? Get another one and break the bank for good glass.
C
8 months ago |i seriously consider this a downgrade, i really like sony camera products, but this sensor is simply overdone, it might have a real good DR, but the noise/iso performance is just a step back, the sweet spot for lenses becomes F5.6 with this sensor, which is not ideal for many photographers.
Even the 1 year old 16mp sensor in the D7000 and K5 perform better than this just because it has less pixels. Too bad, i think iwill skip the Nex7 because of this and just take the Nex5n.
Matt
8 months ago |What? So many freakin’ experts here. In what way is the older 16MP sensor better than the new 24? Performance appears to be roughly the same when the SLT mirror is factored in. Yes the 16MP performed better when there is no mirror in place, this DOES NOT make the sensor not as good, it makes the camera design less good.
In the real world though, I prefer the advantages of SLT over the slight negative impact it has on IQ. Sony do too it would seem.
SonyA77
8 months ago |Indeed. I fail to understand why people are taking ONE aspect of the A77 and then saying the complete package is somehow a failure. The positives FAR outweigh the negative of the A77 matching the A55 for ISO.
Ahmed J.R.
8 months ago |The ISO is not a huge problem for me. ISO 100-400 is more than enough
so, I want that A77
rishio
8 months ago |We should be comparing the results of the A77 with the results of the 5n. I think that would better show us if Sony made the right choice by going to 24mp – or if the cheaper 5n camera blows the a77 away in low light performance. High ISO is important to me. It’s like the third leg on a stool. Being accepting of a camera that only performs well up to ISO 800 is like being okay with a camera that only reaches a top shutter speed of 1/800 of second. I suppose some people don’t go faster than 1/800 of a second, but I would complain because I certainly do.. Low ISO performance means less control of the camera.
alphafan2011
8 months ago |nice comment! to say that someone is only shooting at a max Iso of 800 or 1600 a bad argument. then you also can shoot with better compacts, they have also really nice ISO performance up to 400, sometimes 800!
the high iso is the speciality of larger sensors! and even if you “only shoot up to Iso 800″ wouldnt it be nice, if there is such a situation where you HAVE TO go up in Iso, you can do it without huge detail loss?!
I’m honest, of course during the day or outside i also shoot only up to ISO 800, BUT for example in churches or other dark buildings (castles, etc.) or in the evening with the nice panorama of a city you have to use higher ISO’s! and then you start thinking what is your benefit of the 24 MP now? while people “NEXt” to you shoot those situations without problems paying the half for their camera!
Especially if you want to buy a Sony with that much features like 12 fps (ok, only for one second :-/ ) or the new EVF … you also want to have nice high iso capability as a feature!
rishio
8 months ago |Yes. It’ll be almost comical to see one person with an A77 struggling to take an evening downtown shot due to low light… and a highschool student stopping next to him, whipping out his 5n, snapping the scene at iso 3200, and sharing it with his friends on facebook.
acolyte
8 months ago |That’s not comical. That’s sad
TT11
8 months ago |Chruch and sundown are not the scenarios for high isos. they are the scenario for image stabilisation and tripods….
so with build in image stabilisation you can go up with your exposure time and so decrease the iso values. as it looks like the a77 is only 1/2 a stop worse compared to thex nex-5n or so and the stabilizer is capable of doing way more than 1/2 a stop you will get better results with the a77……
The scenarios you need high iso for are wildlife or sports in low light, or if you want to shoot shows in dark buildings where there is lots of movement.
So essentially the a77 is not for wedding, concert and wilflife fotographer. Most other (and i guess that are a lot more) could be really satisfied with teh a77.
I am as well a bit worried about the iso performance but ithink for everyday use the performance is way good enough and i love to take advantage of the other features of the camera that a d7000, k5 or 7d does not offer. if my hand does not like the a77 or my eye does not like the evf i will go for the d7000 which is too very attractive
alphafan2011
8 months ago |well, of course you can shoot nice pics in churches without a tripod and with higher isos! look at the faces of the other visiting people if you come in with your tripod, position your large cam and large lens and make all the people dont move to avoid to much moving on the low iso long time shots.
definately shooting like walk by, shoot your higher iso shoot, go away would be a lot less annoying!
and also evening city panoramas are shootable without a tripod most of the times. of course you can try everytime with lower iso on your A77 and your tripod, but with the plus of weight you are more limited where to go and how far to go
yes, also wildlife or sports photography are sometimes low light shots, but isnt it also a category where Sony wanted to make points with the 12 fps shooting, more AF points (especially more cross type) and first curtain shutter? in my opinion all is done to make it possible, except with the 24 MP sensor :-/
I want to see a picture where the A77 does better results than the NEX-5N … of course not comparing, 12 am sunlight, blue sky, tripod ISO 50 pics of A77 with 3000$ lens … I mean a realistic comparison, like everyday life shooting. no night, no day … something like afternoon/evening without tripod and comparable lenses in price range!
but of course I want to agree with you. There are a lot of great features in the A77 and most of the pictures will be at least ok for some printing, but the problem in my opinion is that Sony claims to be the best in that price range, but features arend seen on the pictures in the end, there you only see details or no details, noise or no noise and so on … if you say, shooting with the A77 with all these features will be easier, I will definately agree, a really nice system I think … but image quality is that what counts most!
TT11
8 months ago |definitely you are right with what you are saying except the city panoramas i think. in a77 you have the advantage of the stabilizer so you don’t need a tripod in order to get similar results to the 5n. just go down with te iso and up with the exposure. stabilizer does the rest. so very comparable in my opinion.
what exels the 77 about the 5n is the form factor in my opinion. you have a full size dslr body with very similar image quality. i am not talking about small prints. i think even when printing out large pictures a77 will be a good camera, so as 7d is too.
As everybody complains about the iso you have really to take into accout what you are going to do with the camera. i used a 7d for shooting aerobatics with model planes. the results have been amazing, sharp, in focus and it was very easy to take these pictures. you can’t simply compare what the sensor score is in my opinion. you have to take into account what the camera system is capable of.
And i think the overall performance of the a77 system is much bigger than the overall performance of the nex-5nexcept in the cases you need high iso and small form factor
do you agree with that?
alphafan2011
8 months ago |@TT11:
yes I agree that the A77 is in many other categories better than the 5N, but of course you can’t compare some of them because of the huge price gap and the different target groups, one tries to be as small as possible and still have an APS-C sensor and one is the top model of the SLT technology with a lot of stuff added…
I only used the NEX-5N as comparison for the image sensor, and ask myself whether a A77 wouldn’t be better with a 16 MP 5N-sensor ?!
Almond
8 months ago |No, the only thing that will determine whether Sony was right to go with 24MPx will be the comparison between Nex 5N and Nex 7.
You can’t compare the sensor in 5N with the sensor in A77 because the latter is crippled by the mirror.
Ryan
8 months ago |You’re comparing 2009/08 cameras and Sony barely caught up in 2011. Also, you’re comparing with the wrong range of cameras.
simon
8 months ago |Amazing. But siince I already own an a700 and an a55. I can’t justify buying another camera
alphafan2011
8 months ago |well for me it isnt surprising … in my opinion its also part of the strategy of sony
think of it.
well dynamic range and color depth … but where?
right, at Iso 50, what the others can’t offer … take the same Iso and you get the same and not better results there!
and what all critized was of course the high iso performance … and yes, also DXOmark says, that its not good
and why the noise performance is good? yeah, because of the smearing Noise Reduction. of course that is a software analysis, so the software doesnt care if the picture looks terrible because of smearing all over it, it only recognizes the low noise
nice move Sony!
Twaddler Belafonte
8 months ago |Maybe at base ISO. But the high ISO seems to be rather shoddy in comparison. Though it does, judging by the IR test images, seem to match or beat my d300 at ISO 1600 & 3200, which is pretty darn cool. The extra resolution compared to my d300 is also just awesome.
Too bad there’s no way I’m upgrading my camera unless the replacement has a solid couple of stops of extra high-iso goodness.
lock
8 months ago |This is just bullshit. Take a look, and for more info check the Dxo site.
Sony SLT Alpha 77 Pentax K-5 D700
Overall Score 78 82 80
Portrait
(Color Depth) 24 bits 24 23.5
Landscape
(Dynamic Range)13.2 Evs 14.1 12.2
Sports
(Low-Light ISO) 801 ISO 1162 2303
It’s worse than the K5 with the 16 mp sensor.
Do a comparsion with the d300s, and you will see a negligable difference between both. If you are desparate for high Mp sensor, the A77 will give you D300s quality with more pixels. Nothing else.
Kalpurush :)
8 months ago |Do you know how much D300s costs? Go troll somewhere else.
Felixx
8 months ago |1000-1100eur
lock
8 months ago |Now aint that a surprize …only that much ?
Twaddler Belafonte
8 months ago |That’s actually not too bad considering the extra resolution. Maybe in another 4 few years they can nail the high ISO ability.
David Drufke
8 months ago |The reason the score is so high is because of it’s dynamic range, but if you look, both other cameras have better dynamic range by the time you reach ISO 200 (!). Same goes for color.
It’s only a GREAT sensor at base ISO. By mid ISO, it’s just ok, and after that, it’s pretty bad.
Here’s the numbers at ISO 800 compared to the Nikon.
Color Depth: Sony = 18, Nikon = 21
Dynamic Range: Sony = 10, Nikon = 11.2
Keep in mind this is Nikon’s 3 year old camera. Here’s the A77 against a 2 year old full frame camera, the D3S, again at ISO 800.
Color Depth: Sony = 18, Nikon = 21.5
Dynamic Range: Sony = 10, Nikon = 11.5
But wait, what Alpha Rumors didn’t mention in the headline, the D7000, Nikon’s newer crop camera. It handily beats the A77 in every test, at every ISO.
Quit with the misleading headlines and out of context quotes so we can take this blog seriously.
Spoon
8 months ago |Your conclusion about sensors completely faile to account for the half a stop of light loss. Reading (it’s even mentioned by dxo) does help.
acolyte
8 months ago |For one we know the A77 is not perfect
And I guess we can’t hope much for the high ISO performance (and remote and tethering etc)
So Sony hasn’t monopolized the market yet, though they did shake Canikon.
Good enough for the money
But I still won’t pre-order it. I’ll just buy it on the second day or something.
Next Q! Backup camera for A77 – NEX 5N or NEX 7? :[
Clyde
8 months ago |a77 accepts standard Alpha DSLR wired remote. It’s the NEX system that doesn’t allow for that.
jiamflash
8 months ago |Get rid of the SLT and you will see sensentivity reach 1000, we will see in the NEX7
Nikola Ovcharski
8 months ago |Good news for Sony
Falcon75
8 months ago |COMPLETELY DISAGREE!!!!
Go to Dxo Mark site…
Compare the A77 with the A700 and with the Canon 5D Mark II
Here’s the link:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/734%7C0/(brand)/Sony/(appareil2)/483%7C0/(brand2)/Canon/(appareil3)/562%7C0/(brand3)/Sony
Compare the ISO Noise, for example and the dynamic range…….
The results are a complete deception for the A77… honestly… after so many years, IF DXOMARK site is really “truthfull”, the A77 is really no big deal!!!
Daemonius
8 months ago |Really?
D700 doesnt have 24 mpix and if you downsize A77 to 12 mpix, it will look quite similar to what you see if you set DxOmark to show “print” results.
5DMK2 does have 21 mpix, but really heavy handed AA, plus not-so-good colors. DR lacks compared to A77 over 1 eV at base ISO (and its not better even at higher). Plus 5DMK2 is famous for banding if you try to even peak into shadows.
Its not just rumor, and it doesnt make it bad camera, if you simply expose to the right and keep shadows visible and remember to shoot landscapes with polarization or graduated ND. But compared how far you can lift D700 shadows without problem.. well.
I would say A77 is positioned somewhere between D700 and 5DMK2. Better than both in case of DR and colors. SNR will be other thing, but since you have 24 mpix, its very easy to smooth out that bit, and anyway, you wont see that on print, or small web size photo. Its just pixel-peep issue as it was with A900. Good prints from A900 are comparable only to D3X and you wont see that SNR difference on them.
But it depends, do you want camera for pixel peeping, or for good pictures?
Falcon75
8 months ago |LOL
Just compare the A77 with the Nikon D7000, both APS-C, with sony sensor, and see what I am talking about!
rasta
8 months ago |property would be better without the mirror
ben
8 months ago |I don’t know what you’re talking about, but the a77 has better dynamic range and better color depth than both the cameras you listed. It’s better than the a700 in terms of noise, but gets beat handily by the 5D ii. At the end of the day, you do realize you’re comparing an APS-C to a full frame camera right? The results for the a77 then are quite solid.
Jay
8 months ago |Incredible!!!
Ian Scovell
8 months ago |Someone seems to have forgotten to compare the a77 against the D3x & the A900 this tells a ‘very’ different story, especially considering these cameras are from 4 years old!!
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/734|0/(brand)/Sony/(appareil2)/485|0/(brand2)/Nikon/(appareil3)/371|0/(brand3)/Sony
jvardrake
8 months ago |The A77 is an aps-c body that costs ＄1500. You think it needs to be compared to two full frame bodies, costing $7500 (D3x) and $2500 (A900) respectively, before it can be fairly judged?
Why don’t we also add whatever camera they have hooked up to the U2 spy plane to the list of cameras that it needs to be compared to? That way, we can really say how much of a piece of garbage this latest Sony offerring is…
El Aura
8 months ago |Comparing with a $2500 D700 and $2500 5DII is ok (because it wins) but comparing with a $2500 A900 is not ok (because it looses)?
Jonathan
8 months ago |My goodness me people, why all the huge issue over what is not even a stop performance increase, and NO it’s never ‘fair’ to compare an APC system with a Full Frame one. The Full frame system SHOULD always win! If it does not well that’s just an amazing point and something to be very impressed with. But you need to compare the A77 with other APC camera’s only and remember it has a SLT design so there will be slight loss as well as the high MP sensor which you expect allot more loss again… BUT yet the A77 seems to be comparing very well even with these two points that work against ISO performance but do offer allot of other benefits and for the matter of net even 0.5 a stop over all it’s an amazing achievement and improvement I think when looking at the entire package.. I think I’m going to buy one to check it out… (P.S. Keep in mind for the new comers, the constant F2.8 lens Sony offer upto 2 stops better performance than other stock lenses from competitors meaning for the average users they are FAR ahead with ISO performance, sure for the experienced user with a wide range of lenses this is not as valid but we are talking LESS than 0.5 stops worse off in some cases, surely the other benefits over come with?)
Dave Cox
8 months ago |Great comment. The fact the A77 even comes close to those 2 camera tells the whole story for me. Those people above who print their 3m x 2m images can moan about high ISO all they like but if I want images at ISO3200 I’ll downsize to 12MP and print at a mere 18×12 inches.
There are some crazy comments on here.
Maveric19
8 months ago |Now that a reputable source has tested the a77 and the results are very favorable I guess “ALL THE EXPERTS/HATERS” can shut the hell up. Out of that test the only thing I can see Sony needs to better is the ISO issue. Maybe a software update in the future can remedy the situation.
Maveric19
8 months ago |A77 vs. D7000 vs. 7D
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/734%7C0/(brand)/Sony/(appareil2)/680%7C0/(brand2)/Nikon/(appareil3)/619%7C0/(brand3)/Canon
Maveric19
8 months ago |Comparing anything other than the a77/d7000/7d is plain idiotic. These are the cameras people should be pitting against each other.
GH
8 months ago |I would say that comparing the A77 against full frame cameras is at least a little interesting, considering it seems to have caught up at low ISO in many ways.
Daemonius
8 months ago |Considering ISO 50, its not just another APS-C camera. Btw. thats really nice aspect of A77 (now what about ISO 25 Sony? ..and nothing still beaten ISO 6 in one very old dSLR:D)
Its 24 vs 16 vs 18 mpix. Size everything down to 12 mpix (or 8 mpix as DxOmark does) and its pretty much tie for A77 vs D7000 (except DR, but theres like 0.5% ppl that actually know how to use DR advantage that D7000 has).
And Sony wins in either case, cause D7000 is still “Sony inside”.
And Canon is loosing.. badly.
Maxwell
8 months ago |The A77 is good, but I guess not the “high ISO camera” many people had hoped for now. That is why some people will say it is not good enough. And that is fare if they need a excellent high ISO performer. If you “live” below ISO 1600, the camera looks like an excellent performer.
I might buy NEX-5N this time and wait for next A7x or A7xx, or maybe FF camera if Sony next year release some. Mirrorless FF… I am interested but keep the MP’s not to high. I just don’t need all these MP’s.
El Aura
8 months ago |The key reason is that QE is unlikely to rise further by any significant measure, I’d say a 1/3 of a stop more is all we see in the next five years. Noise in the deep shadows can still improve some more but the ‘low-hanging’ fruits in sensor development in regard to high ISO have been plucked. Get used to much more stagnation regarding high ISO.
The base ISO improvements of the recent Sony sensors will trickle down to other sensors, and switching the cell voltage can possibly increase base ISO performance noticeably without compromising high ISO performance. Equally, DR might improve noticeably if faster sensors allow for automatic HDR via multiple exposures.
Spoon
8 months ago |Just like multiple exposure low noise modes?
El Aura
8 months ago |Yes, multiple exposures to lower noise (at high ISO) can help but I think the effect is limited. If you can merge two 1/100 s exposures that are only 1/100 s apart, you might as well take a 1/33 s right away. If the motion blur is very uniform across the image, merging the two exposures will give you a better a image (in a sense this works similarly to stabilising video footage digitally). But for non-uniform motion this merging won’t work that well.
But this is much more a digital image stabilisation than a sensor improvement.
Phil
8 months ago |I actually received my A77 today. Because I had relatives coming to stay I didnt have a chance to take any photos with it- I have just unboxed and fitted 16-80 my first impressions are generally positive-
It comes with a hotshoe cover- small details make a difference
The strap is cool- sony brand name is understated and it has “A77″ on it.
Joystick is a bit crap- too plasticy
Pop up flash is great- brilliant movemen compared t a550.
I cant comment on its actual photo quality yet!- who cares about that anyway?
Genius
8 months ago |I use a 0.8 MP barbie point and shoot camera to shoot wedding photos.
It doesn’t even have an ISO setting and takes 2 AAs for a powersource.
I print Billboards with these photos and nobody cares….
Please reconsider the Nikon V1….
Celeste
8 months ago |This comparison confirmed my suspicion that the A77 will be big improvement over my A55. I’m happy with the images I can make with the A55, but I need the weatherprofing, the resolution, the color range, and the dynamic range of the A77. I’m planning to buy the body and the kit lens in spring of 2012.
Mr M
8 months ago |Isnt photography about lighting control and understanding light conditions before taking a shot?
Seems like people wants to abandon the wise old principles and seek for a magical breakthrough in high ISO to shoot in bad lighting conditions.
scorche
8 months ago |Isn’t innovation about pushing the boundaries though? a hundred years ago we would have been asking people to sit motionless for minutes, why be happy with what we have if we can go further. That said, I’m glad the Megapixel arms race is winding down and manufacturers, like sony, are looking to bring improvements in other regions. Though 24MP still seems a bit excessive to me.
scorche
8 months ago |Seems like there’s no winning… Sony sacrificed high ISO for other features. The camera’s not out yet so it’s yet to be seen whether the trade-off was worthwhile. Sony didn’t bring out a SLR version, so we’ll never know what it could have been. Though I must say I was pretty jealous when Pentax came out with the k5, which is the sensor the a55 uses, but with a mirror.
I’ve been shooting with minoltas, then alphas, and the last body I’ve had, for a few years now is the a700. I think all here agree that it was time to bring the successor for a while now. I think the two top reasons I missed some shots were focusing issues and lighting. Those who’ve shot in a dark church are no strangers to the later. I think, according to the specs, that the 2 to 3 extra usable stops will make a huge difference. Additionally, addressing my first issue, microfocus adjustment and more focus points are the two improvements I needed the most. So while it’s no d700 in therms of hight ISO, I’m very excited about the a77 and ready to take on all the Uncle Bobs with their their Mark IIIs.
As someone that’s looking at this from a business standpoint, the $1500 to upgrade a camera and retire a backup body makes good sense to me. As for the clients that want to know how the camera stacks up against others on DxO, I’d rather not deal with them anyway.
SonyA77
8 months ago |What do you mean it isn’t out yet. I know people who have the A77 NOW!
scorche
8 months ago |it isn’t out yet in my neck of the woods
Sporeo
8 months ago |I can’t claim to know how exactly they perform this test and get these results, but I don’t really buy the ‘lower end’ result of this camera based on what I have seen. I think this camera is more than capable of performing well under low light. It seems from samples that 1600-3200 is completely realistic for use in the most general sense, and even Luminous Landscapes’ review of the a65 with 1.02 firmware had acceptable results up to 12800. Noise that is apparent at the 1600-3200 point looks very easy to clean up and reduce without much if any loss, but maybe it’s just me. Even beyond that I don’t take much issue in a realistically sized image. I won’t have any qualms about pushing my ISO up if need be, but in all honesty, I don’t think I will have much need in that regard either.
scorche
8 months ago |agreed, looking at the crops, 3200 is still clean, and even 6400 can be cleaned easily. (with the a700 I was afraid to push it to 1600 and would rarely do so)
100% crops don’t take into account the 24MP sensor. That noise will get lost when I view it on a 32″ monitor or in reasonable sized prints.
3rd best ,or whatever it may be, doesn’t get bragging rights though
Rodrigo
8 months ago |Apparently the a77 has gone from “1/2 stop loss from the mirror” to “crappy camera only-for-noon-shots-in Mercury”.
And even the “bad” mirror is a trick to get ISO50.
Maybe the those Canons and Nikons are better at high ISO, it simply means they are better than a very good camera and not that the A77 is a bad one. Clyde made a good question several times: “If you’re a professional photographers does that difference show in actual print?”
How were people shooting weddings 5 years ago with APS-C cameras if you really need noise-free handheld no-flash ISO6400 for $1500 at 400mm?
And, of couse, 100% crop at 24mpx starts getting ridiculous; it means nothing in real life. It’s like complaining how crappy your 60″ LED TV is at 20 cm.