Next major Sony announcement in March-April…
Image on top: The new 20mm lens (preorder at BHphoto)
For the record, the new 20mm pancake and new SLT firmware is all what Sony will show for the CP+ show in Yokohama that will start this week. The real major news like NEX-3n, A38 and A38 camera will be announced in March-April only. Also the new E and A mount lenses will be announced in the same period. I am now going to prepare a more detailed roundup of the rumored new cameras and lenses.
By the way, I am actually very busy working on new rumors. In these days I had again lot of talk about the next 12-16 months Sony strategy. If some of you have some more bits to share you can contact me anonymousely by using the contact form on this site or by sending me an email at sonyalpharumors@gmail.com.
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Rurik
4 months ago |You got a typo, Andrea. “A38 and A38 camera”.
PS. Keep up with your efforts. Especially about strategy stuff is very interesting.
xspider
4 months ago |Hmm that means the A-Mount Zeiss 50mm f1,4 will only be available in summer, if we are lucky!?!
I would have hoped that we get that earlier. Any news whether we will also have the updated SAL 70200G and SAL 70400G by that time?
Steve
4 months ago |So, March-April is when we should expect to learn more about the rumored A-Mount optics…
I understand that it’s more likely to see pigs fly, but it would be nice if top Sony management could make a statement about future A-Mount full-frame development.
If Sony came out today saying the corporate position was that the future of photography is mirrorless and that the future of Sony mirrorless development would be the E-Mount, I would be depressed and sad, but I then would clearly understand that investing in new full-frame A-mount glass would be bad decision for me.
Frank
4 months ago |Or at least came out with a A-mount body and lens road map covering 2013-14.
Frank
4 months ago |Oh wait, there isn’t one!
Sky_walker
4 months ago |Isn’t, never was, never will be. Just like there there isn’t a roadmap for Canon or Nikon. Get over it Frank.
Frank
4 months ago |Canon and Nikon don’t have the issue of uncertainty over their brand. Sony need to keep their customers informed and can’t afford to sit on their laurels.
Alex
4 months ago |Sony would never do that, because that would basically kill their entire a-mount business overnight as people will second-guess whether to invest or stay invested. If someone discontinues something, consumers will usually find out only when it is too late.
Not having a roadmap that they support is bad though, because it shows a lack of leadership, direction and consistence. I fear that the firmware we will see announced this week is only a lens update with minor fixes, and not a rich feature adding and bug fixing update we all want them to release.
Hendrick
4 months ago |You know what you should do? Once the a99 firmware update comes up, you should decript it and see if there are non existent lenses in the list of it to find out what are the new and soon coming lenses for A mount.
My two cents.
gashi
4 months ago |any news about the sony nex 7n???when is it coming??
Colamango
4 months ago |58
CTPhotographX.com
4 months ago |Admin, I respect your work. But instead of you talking to Sony about their strategy, has Sony ever considered talking with users about their strategy?
As a 25 year Alpha user who feeds my kids with Sony gear in hand, the only strategy I see is them making my life as a stills photographer more difficult. Seems they are strategizing how to get me to change brands away from Alpha.
No Alpha Pro Shooter, to my knowledge, ever said to themself “If only Sony would abandon iISO flash legacy for a nice microphone… then I’d become a big time videographer and stop with this silly stills photography”… Did anyone ever say that to themselves?
Casual users can have all the lower mp EVF mirrorless NEXY adapter cameras they want. I hope they get a bunch of them. But I assure you, Professional users want a super high MP camera that isn’t crippled with flash disfunction and extra noise created by heat generating EVF and a translucent mirror that won’t swing up out of the way, and compromised stills performance all in the name of video.
Come on Sony… One more a900Ti stills slayer with high MP, weather sealing, superior AF, NATIVE ALPHA MOUNT without adapters required for ANYTHING. Improve iISO rather than killing everyones flash system dead with compromises. Impress the Pros, benefit from the praises of their loyalty. Enthusiasts and Amateurs will pay more attention to that than any celebrity or app store.
Sony… Stop making cameras for yourself, to support only yourself… Start making cameras for photographers, and support them. Long term profit is best assured by listening to photographers more than share holders.
Freddo
4 months ago |“No Alpha Pro Shooter, to my knowledge, ever said to themself “If only Sony would abandon iISO flash legacy for a nice microphone… then I’d become a big time videographer and stop with this silly stills photography”… Did anyone ever say that to themselves?”
Answer might be pretty simple. Sony is not focusing on keeping their old customers, they try to find new ones, thus increasing their small piece of the market. Not saying it is a correct decision, but a possible one.
Frank
4 months ago |…and E-mount is where the new customers are, not A-mount.
Sky_walker
4 months ago |New customers are in A-mount too. Regardless of your trolling attempts.
Frank
4 months ago |A-mount is insignificant compared to E-mount. Only a fool would believe that Sony are making bags of money from A-mount in comparison to E-mount.
Carl
4 months ago |A business model akin to heaping sand onto an hourglass or bailing a boat with a hole in the bottom wouldn’t be my pick for a way to grow a business.
Alex
4 months ago |Sadly, I have to agree with you. The problem I think is not so much that Sony listens only to shareholders, but rather that they are out of cash. Selling in a consumer market provides them with much more money in the short term than catering to pro’s. Let’s be honest, there are a few more things they would have to fix to beat CaNikon, not just releasing one great camera body. The standard Iso hotshoe is a disaster so far. Lenses are delayed over and over again, and third-party manufacturers also take their sweet time because the market is just too small for them to invest in retooling or blocking capacity that they could use much better for other manufacturers.
There is more wrong than just a missing high-end body. There is a lack of direction that is slowly (maybe even deliberately) killing off pro photography with Sony a-mount. Don’t get me wrong, I am heavily invested in Sony and I own an A99, but I fear that the A99 was not a revival of Sony’s commitment to pro photography, but rather the end of it.
John Maverick
4 months ago |What is it with all the Canikon guys who come here to tell stories about how SONY the imminent demise of SONY?
Steve
4 months ago |I’m a third generation photographer and worked as a pro till the family studio closed a number of years ago. My dad passed his Minolta SR-1 down to me in 1968 and I used it till 1973 when I got a Nikon F2 as a high school graduation gift. In 1986 my then Nikon F3 camera and lens were stolen and I moved back to Minolta and have been shooting A-Mount ever since, collecting lenses on the way over the last 26 years now.
I see the EVA and all of the stuff that it makes possible as the future, I see in-body stabilization as the way to go and I once believed that the Sony/Zeiss alliance was optical nirvana, so I’m disappointed that Sony has yet to take the promise of the Minolta purchase and all of the possibilities of Sony’s technical abilities. But that’s the way life is………….
John Maverick
4 months ago |Wouldn’t the ability to use standard wireless remotes like Pocket Wizards be a good reason for ISO in a studio environment? Also is there an adaptor for ISO to iISO?
Steve
4 months ago |So are you saying that A-Mount shooters now have all of the same functionality using Pocketwizard that Canon and Nikon shooters do?
When did Pocketwizard start supporting Sony?
John Maverick
4 months ago |Are you answering a question with a question? How much functionality and interoperbility is there right now? Standard professional hotshoe means basic flash remotes eg. Cowbow Studio should work. Moving toward industry standards is a good thing in attracting outsiders to the system.
CTPhotographX.com
4 months ago |The adapter doesn’t have the pin locks for secure fit. Pixel King and Phottix Odin offer full function radio slave with ttl and hss ability for 20 year iISO Alpha Standard. Now we need clumbsy loose fit adapters for native flash function, and no native mount third party flash, which iISO has dozens of.
The world of flash doesn’t revolve around tricking custoers into thinking the mighty Pocket Wizard will one day take interest in Sony. The only way that will happen is if they see PK’s and Odins flying off the shelf. The decision to make anything Sony fit native flash just became exponentially more risky.
John Maverick
4 months ago |Informative response. Presumably though Pixel King and Phottix Odin will update their trigger/transmitters for SONY with time?
GreenLens
4 months ago |troll galore
Frank
4 months ago |Rather than name calling, why not present your argument the future of A-mount?
Sky_walker
4 months ago |jeez, we’re down to this level? Seriously? How about presenting an arguments for EOS and F mount? Same level of idiocy.
CTPhotographX.com
4 months ago |CaNikon both offer complete flash systems beyond a single unit. They didn’t sacrifice their customer legacy flash investment for the sake of a microphone.
Sky_walker
4 months ago |And what does it have to the future of A-mount? A flash system that’s used in 3 different families of products (A-mount, NEX, and CyberShot)?
spaceman
4 months ago |Any news on when they publish their updated E-mount roadmap (2013-2014)? CP+ would be a good time to unveil an updated roadmap, roughly 1 year since the last update.
Interesting to see if more pancake lenses are on an updated map. A fast 40mm pancake should be possible, if Canon can make a EF 40mm/28 pancake, although it is with external focus.
The Lotus Eater
4 months ago |Sony might continue with A-mount far into the future, but personally I’m having trouble justifying its continued existence – or any other traditional DSLR for that matter, when it comes to amateur use.
I have a fair few A-mount lenses and an A700, but when I picked up my A700/16-50mm f2.8 the other day, after using nothing but my new NEX-6 for a couple of weeks, it was like lifting a brick and just seemed silly and outdated.
Carl
4 months ago |Big glass is going to feel like a brick irrespective of however wafer-thin the body you mount it on is. If one needs to shoot a 70-200/2.8 or a 300/2.8 say for whatever reason, a mirrorless body is rather irrelevant.
The Lotus Eater
4 months ago |True, but I could mount a 50/1.4 and it would still feel big and heavy. A large body with all the additional weight of mirror boxes and pentaprisms just can’t compete with mirrorless in this regard.
Sure, you can mount large glass to a mirrorless camera and the combo will feel unbalanced, but the same goes for a large DSLR with a lightweight prime. Neither is perfect.
Sky_walker
4 months ago |o_O Mount 50 f/1.4 on Dynax 7 and tell me it’s big and heavy. It’s Full Frame A-mount camera that’s only slightly bigger then NEX7, roughly in a size of mirrorless Olympus OM-D (only Dynax had FF and Olympus got P&S-sized sensor). And Dynax 7 is hardly a smallest A-mount ever build.
So using body size as an excuse for E mount camera is pointless. Minolta proven it countless times that there can be a small, portable A-mount camera. Only Sony somehow isn’t willing to embrace it (otherwise E-mount would loose it’s most obvious selling point).
evildogofdoom
4 months ago |Comparing a 35mm film camera with a DSLR is also wrong. Your Dynax 7 had a fraction of the electronics that a modern camera, let alone a sensor with SSS. It is a regrettable fact that nearly all DSLR cameras are bigger then the old SLRs. A modern micro 4/3 camera is about the same size as Olympus’s old OM range of cameras, so it appears if you want a large sensor / small camera, mirrorless is the way to go, with existing technology
Carl
4 months ago |It might not have image stabilisation, but it does have a film gate and a 4fps motor inside.
That said, mine isn’t smaller than, say, an A55. Something like a Dynax 3/4 is quite a bit more compact than its larger brother.
Sky_walker
4 months ago |evildogofdoom – so how come something like RX1 is possible? I’d say that it’s smaller then Dynax 7. Easily.
By your theory – RX1 shouldn’t exist. Cause there’s not enough space for electronics inside.
The Lotus Eater
4 months ago |Sky_walker – that was probably the worst comparison I’ve ever read on a forum.
Frank
4 months ago |“Minolta proven it countless times that there can be a small, portable A-mount camera. Only Sony somehow isn’t willing to embrace it”
The answer is staring you in the face, but people who point out the obvious conclusion are “trolls”.
Ian
4 months ago |I am not a pro admitedly but I shoot enough shots in a wide enough range of conditions to make me strongly think EVF is the future combined with on-sensor PDAF. The next generation or two of EVF should pretty much see them perform as good if not better than OVF and likewise for on-sensor PDAF. I think the SLT technology is dead for this and other reasons and probably so to is the dream of a FF high MP SLR. I believe mirrorless are the future and I am confident that Sony will head down the path. High MP mirrorless I think will be Sony’s next big thing. They will easily lead the way in the market if they do so.
Sony trails so far behind CaNikon in DSLR sales volume that they are never going to make serious money by pursuing SLT technology. Attracting users across from other systems with high MP FF mirrorless allows them to real in prospective customers without them having to fully equip with Sony lenses straight away by using adapters. I feel this is the only sensible business strategy for Sony who make a very small amount of their revenue in DSLR but make good money in consumer and mirrorless segment. I am hoping this is the strategy they adopt and that we will see this camera some time next year. Having said there is no chance I will buy it as I have vowed to stop spending money on expensive gear and just work with what I have!
Interesting to hear other peoples views. I have no basis of course for my statements. Just postulating
andrew
4 months ago |Ian
That certainly makes sense to me – I always understood that slt was just the next step in the transition to mirrorless, so it inevitably would have a limited life expectancy.
The image quality advantages from mirrorless are obvious – no light loss compared to slt and no mirror-mirror shake compared to slr. Equally the evf has a lot going for it… Definitely like the idea of hitting around 30mp.
As for format, I see nex and dslm as very different concepts. A dslr style body provides options that aren’t practical with a nex body – weight alone precludes big heavy glass on the nex. The larger body allows ibis to be kept too.
On the other hand, you can’t beat the nex for portability and it can deliver great results with the right glass.
I could easily see sony supporting both platforms with same sensors, but different target markets. It’s possible in those circumstances that they’ll do away with the alpha 3 series and concentrate on higher end bodies.
If they killed the a-mount I’d seriously consider nex, but only if they can sell me the lenses I want to use with oss (a 70-300, 50/1.4, 24-75/2.8 and a 100m macro – or apsc equivalents). Personally I think this is a bit of ask, especially scaled down to fit the nex form factor, which makes me think 2 systems are the answer.
Sky_walker
4 months ago |“If they killed the a-mount I’d seriously consider nex,” – if they’d kill A-mount I’d never thrust them in buying into any Sony camera system. And would make sure everyone I know won’t get onboard Sony. You can’t thrust a company that kills over 25 years old system, especially with a system that got just created – who knows if they won’t swap it to something different in next 5 years? When the craziness of small cameras passes by?
Hopefully that won’t happen though.
Mick
4 months ago |Releasing the new G zoom with something special (like power zoom) would really give me an incentive to buy this lens. Think about it. The only power zoom lenses for large sensor cameras are Panasonics, Nikon and Sony but they are all slow lenses (f3.5-5.6). If Sony released a constant aperture (f3.5) power zoom to take advantage of their LANC control this would be a significant change. It would bring the large sensor camera one step closer to a traditional camcorder.
Steve S.
4 months ago |If we take it as a given that Sony is in business to sell products at a profit in such a way as to maximize profits — and really, any other premise seems awfully unlikely! — then the relative successes of E- and A- mounts suggests that they would focus their attention on E-mount over A-mount (at least for now): it’s where the sales-volume and the profits are.
Also worth remembering is that there are more Sony sensors in Nikon cameras than in Alpha-mount cameras. So, Sony has decent SLR sales-volume (and profit) without *ANY* A-mount sales!
Really, the amount of A-mount development is almost surprising for how much there is… It got a bump when the SLT furor seemed to generate a sales-spike, but I don’t think that was a sustained increase.
Personally, I like the SLR/SLT form-factor (MUCH better than NEX!) for an interchangeable-lens camera: even the smaller SLT’s are too small for my hand to comfortably hold for an extended time, and once it’s gotten to large to fit body+lens into a pocket, 99% of what *I* value in a small camera is lost. Which is why I’m still 100% on the A-mount, and have only an interested eye on the NEX.
Frank
4 months ago |However a mirrorless E-mount SLR sized body would be the answer to that. With an adapter for legacy A-mount lenses. It’s where I see it going.
Ian
4 months ago |I agree very much with comments re: two mirrorless lines. A NEX style and an SLR style. Can’t see what that wouldn’t work. Small size for consumers and those who want portability. SLR form factor (but still with EVF / PDAF) for those that want SLR form factor. To me that is the natural evolution of photography. Lets call it I don’t know, maybe something like the ‘OMD-5′
Just kidding but that camera has been a massive success and I think it is a good proof of concept for the market being ready for a serious mirrorless camea. I agree with comments re: 30 MP as well. How nice would a mirrorless body with 30+MP, awesome EVF and great PDAF be? With a short flange distance for adapters to boot. Sounds like my dream. Not to everyones liking I am sure but certainly to mine.
Goudstaaf
4 months ago |hmmk, interesting new filter applied to posts here.
WK
4 months ago |It’s silly to think that having a road-map for a interchangeable lens system that’s only a year or two will do. I’ve always planned my interchangeable lens system out at least 10 years. A fully complete interchangeable lens system takes most folks on that order of time to afford to assemble. Sony has built no trust as to their long term support of any system, in fact their behavior could not be designed better for killing trust. That’s why they have never been a serious competitor to companies like Nikon or Canon, both of which support long term building of a photographic system that all parts work together.
NEX can survive by being an extension of their cybershot and video lines and by the Japanese market where system support is not an issue. Alpha cannot. Introducing a incompatible hot shoe this year (in order to expand video) just continues to show how little Sony understands interchangeable lens systems for still photography. It’s getting to where it does not matter what they say, or rumors say about where they are going in the next few months. Sustained support for photographers with a stable photographic system for a long time is what it will take to repair the damage they have done. And that’s not going to happen with Sony.
John Maverick
4 months ago |The biggest impediment for SONY is all the A-mount users spreading their predictions of death for A-mount. It’s like they are looking for an excuse to dump the system. The transition to standard ISO hotshoe exemplifies this. It has received near universal praise from people outside the system who might otherwise be drawn to it.
CTPhotographX.com
4 months ago |Ignorant praise from those who don’t fathom the dysfunction it creates. Praise for a shoe that accepts nothing which benefits the photographer. Praise for a shoe that includes a loose fit adapter as an afterthought to appease those with considerable iISO investment. Praise for a she that mounts a dumb Pocket Wizard… we could do that with an adapter for iISO. Now we need adapter for native flash and full function slave… They can’t even get their own IR system to work properly with their own adapter.
But that sure is a real nice XLR microphone. Wonder how those are selling? Nothing current couldn’t have been accomplished better than if iISO was simply improved, rather than abandoned. Hope the videtogs are happy. CaNikon didn’t change their flash system just for a cool microphone.
Steve
4 months ago |+1
Nice
Frank
4 months ago |Indeed
Carl
4 months ago |Well, if a significant number of their current userbase is looking for a way out, then by rights management should be worried about that, because it means they’re doing something wrong.
John Maverick
4 months ago |Take another lower volume maker and compare the attitude of the average Pentaxian, with the Alpha users here. These guys haven’t even got a fullframe DSLR, and yet they maintain optimistim and healthy anticipation for new products! Half of the comments here are from people that don’t even SONY but the doom and gloom message is uncritically embraced at face value.
Consider the above guy’s comment saying that he won’t consider the system because there’s no decade long lens release schedule?!!. If this is the demand, then the faster SONY can transfer all resources to NEX the better. At least E-mount users will communicate the value of the brand to photographers outside the SONY community.
Frank
4 months ago |It’s difficult to “communicate the value of the brand to photographers outside the SONY community” when Sony themselves don’t appear to value it or their existing customer base.
Frank
4 months ago |I thought I’d never see the day that I agreed with Walt…
Ton
4 months ago |I have a beautiful NEX-7 for about a year and still waiting for quality lenses that were promised for 2012, hoped that I could travel light in the future. I regret that I bought this camera.
Spoon
4 months ago |What’s wrong with the 24mm, 35mm and 50mm ones from Sony (and 19mm and 30mm) from Sigma?
John Maverick
4 months ago |Or the new wide zoom. Of course there’s absolutely nothing wrong with these great lenses. He/she is just here to spread FUD.
Ton
4 months ago |It is he. I have the 35mm Sigma, 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 from Tamron on my NEX-7 and don’t need a 19 or 24mm, but I am waiting for a 24-75mm f/2.8 walk around lens and a 200mm (+)f/2.8 tele. In short quality lenses. I don’t buy a € 1200.- body for f/6.3 lenses.
Maybe the 85mm will be something, but still a rumor. For a vacation lens the 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 will do, but that is all. I have a 24mp super sensor that need at least f/1.8 or f/2.8 quality lenses, f/6.3 is rediculous.
I don’t spread FUD, just waiting and waiting for those lenses and now I don’t think they come from Sony, so wait for E-mount lenses from Sigma.
Don’t need new bodies, but lenses and I ‘am not the only one.
John Maverick
4 months ago |To take advantage of that 24Mp sensor, you need high quality prime lenses. The 24, 35 and 50 are all f/1.8. Nobody will make a 24-70/2.8 because it will be too large
Mirrorless are great because of their small compact size, but they are not quite as flexible as dslrs.
Steve
4 months ago |Do any of the primes available for the E-Mount equal the quality of the best full-frame lenses of similar focal length from Nikon, Canon or even Sony/Zeiss?
The new 35/f1.4 sigma is a nice lens, is there an equal out yet for the E-Mount?
I’m thinking of getting the NEX-6 for street photography and a small camera with a equally small lens would be nice.
Dirk
4 months ago |Basically nothing wrong with the lenses.
But with the Nex7′s IQ. Don’t get me wrong. I own it, i love it, but IQ except except for Zeiss and 50/1.8 sucks with every lens if not stopped down by at least 2 stops.
So I join the ones praying for the 7n,which will hopefully solves its predecessors problems.
kum
4 months ago |Any news about the nex 7n???
tim
4 months ago |I don’t get why Sony decided to replace the sel16f28 with a 20mm. Couldn’t they just do a higher quality 16mm one or even better, a 14 or 12mm? I’m looking for a wa/uwa lens for emount but i just can’t find something that fits my needs. The 16mm is quite poor in terms of image quality and i’d probably need the wide-angle converter which would cost me about 300$, which isn’t a really good deal in my eyes.
Samyang/Wallimex is fisheye-only. The 10-18f40 is too expensive for me as a student. What should i do? Get the a-m
mount adapter from Sony? If i had been aware that the lens lineup would still miss several important things like a high-quality standard zoom, good wide-angle lens and just 1 good third party tele zoom in 2013, maybe i wouldn’t have bought a nex. but that’s my fault, i know that.
and sorry for my bad english..
Spoon
4 months ago |Who says it’s a replacement? The 16mm is still listed for sale on Sony.com.
Carl
4 months ago |Get the Sigma 19mm.
RickJ
4 months ago |Yeah, not really impressed with Sonys lack of releases / lense lineup anymore for the Alpha. No F4 lenses, ridiculous pricing for their F2.8′s… too much division between their 2 platforms. I’d kill for a 300mm F4 lens or similar.. something that doesn’t cost $6000-7000
Meh, time to check out Nikon rumors :/
Cliff
4 months ago |Anyone know if this new 20mm will work with the 16mm fish-eye and super wide angle adapters? The new 20mm seems to have the same locking interface.
Anfernee Cheang
4 months ago |I am not sure if my a57 really needs a firmware update. I am pretty happy with it. But my NEX-C3 is another case when attaching the new E1650 pancake on it. Although there is no any hood or filter, the dark corner is still totally unacceptable. The situation is like that you did not mount the hood to the right position on a regular lens. But the same lens works great on my NEX-6.
There are so many same issues reported in forums. I don’t know why Sony has created this simple problem. There should be enough tests on all NEX bodies when launching a new lens. And I hope a new fireware could simply correct it. So my question is, when is the new firmware for NEX series?
Thank you Andrea.
chenfei
4 months ago |ahh.. Maybe Trolls are paid by canikon to messed up Sony public opinions…
Sky_walker
4 months ago |Some are paid, some are just full of hate towards Sony (guess their TV broke 10 years ago and now they’re frustrated), some just have pathetic life and need to do something in their spare time.
Frank
4 months ago |Or could it be that they are frustrated by Sony inept handling of the Minolta legacy that they loved and invested in?
y2k
4 months ago |Great news..
A-mount and 3 /5/ 6/ 7 series will live on. Consumers have the best choices per iteration of 100$s in Sony than any Camera Manufactures Around.Sony will not kill it,don’t worry,
A-mount Mirrorless can also be the case later.Who Knows!!
Frank
4 months ago |Once you have removed the mirror, A-mount is redundant. You may as well just build a SLR sized E-mount camera and have a A-mount adapter for it.
y2k
4 months ago |They Wouldn’t do that I think! . E-mount and Portability comes together.
If mirrorless is the future then there will be:
Mirrorless A-mount(may be FLip-up* DSLR like large camera since large Pro lens will always have huge size and E-mount won’t be able to handle well.) with E-mount Adapters that exist in parallel with
NEX E-mount cameras with A-mount adapters.
The Lotus Eater
4 months ago |“E-mount and Portability comes together”.
Yes, but I prefer to use the word flexibility.
y2k
4 months ago |Anybody Guessing on the price and features ,relative to previous same models.?