Sony 16-50mm reviewed at SLRgear! Sony’s marketing is “more,” not “better.” (Thom Hogan)
The new Sony 16-50mm f/2.8 lens has been already reviewed by SLRgear (Click here). They did NOT test the lens on the new Sony A77! The lens is sharper at the wide end than on the tele end. It has a very good corner to corner sharpness. The only real “issue” is Chromatic Aberration. But overall “the combination works to produce excellent photographs.“. You can read the full review and see all the graphs here at SLRgear.
Meanwhile Thom Hogan (Click here) gave his first impressions about the A77: “This is a top end camera, and so obviously it should have a top end level of features, but one thing that struck me in reading all the Sony marketing material was that there was a lot of emphasis on the bells and whistles and not nearly as much on the quality side. When quality was mentioned, it was obviously hyperbole (“flawless image quality”).” and “A few people with preproduction cameras have sent me image samples to analyze, though, and what I see is a lot of noise reduction in the JPEGs, which pretty much rules out the word “flawless” in my book.”
If you don’t agree with Thom drop a comment on SAR. I am sure he is reading your them!
You can check the price of the new Sony stuff and preorder at Amazon:
Sony A77 with 16-50mm lens at Amazon (Click here).
Sony A77 body only at Amazon (Click here).
Sony A65 with 18-55mm lens at Amazon (Click here).
Sony A65 body only at Amazon (Click here).
Sony NEX-7 body only at Amazon (Click here).
Sony NEX-5N with 18-55mm lens at Amazon (Click here).
Sony NEX-5N at Amazon (Click here).
Zeiss 24mm f/1.8 E-mount at Amazon (Click here).
Sony 55-210mm E-mount at Amazon (Click here).
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brahimcha
9 months ago |We are starting to have the same issue as compact cameras. More megapixels, same sensor size => less light -> more noise and more image post-processing
I’m happy with my Nex-5 14Mpixels. I’m just curious about the Nex-5N’s touch screen. Might add more usability to it
i guess that if you want 24 MPixels or more, you need to switch to FF…
Chris
9 months ago |the jpegs really dont look so nice at high iso (iso800 and above) but i am sure the raw looks much nicer.. i personally prefer to only use noise reduction for chroma (color) noise.
but anyways.. i think i buy the sony nex5n .. 16mp high quality at base iso and good high iso (better than the 24mp) at high iso.
it also has manual control on video and same high quality codec as a77 (the sony vg20 video camera uses the 16mp sensor too)
i did compare the samples on imaging resource.
the 16mp sensor blown up to 24mp looks pretty much the same as the nex7 files
for me the sony nex5n seems like the perfect camera now.. love the focus peaking with manual lenses too. no other camera can it that nice.
if you want a pro camera the nex7 isnt really better than the nex5 anyways. what do you gain? noisy 24mp a mic in port and some more buttons which most people wont use anyways.
Tom
9 months ago |Of course Thom Hogan is right. Plus all the effort Sony put into making better cameras and market share increase is nowhere, after half a decade of trying so hard. The problem is Stringer. Sony needs different ledership.
Sky_walker
9 months ago |Oh c’mon. Tom has some serious issues.
He didn’t liked that Sony haven’t put words “better than Nikon” in every two sentence? You’ve got to be kidding me.
He judged camera from pre-production shots? You’ve got to be kidding me.
In either way – many people here somehow seem to repeat the stupid mistake of judging the camera from it’s pre-production models over and over again. People already forgot the NEX5 history? It’s pre-production shots were crap, and there was whole lot of bullying before anyone even had right to speak about quality. Than the tests came out of real camera and… surprise! It’s one of best, if not: the best mirrorless camera in matter of picture quality. I doubt A77 will be equally outstanding, but even if pixel-peeping quality gonna be equal to A55 or 33 than it’s already way ahead of any APS-C competition when it comes to total amount of details on the picture.
acolyte
9 months ago |Sky. Remember. Winner laughs at the end.
And uh.. Pixel peeping? They wanna compare a pixel @ 24MP with a pixel @ 12MP? Or a pixel @ 24MP APS-C and @ 24MP FF?
There are some trade offs.. If they think this disappoints them, then they can stay with.. what was it? pancanikonpus? o.o
Sky_walker
9 months ago |For him it was Canon.
Besides that – pixel peeping for noise was never really reasonable, no matter the size of sensor or resolution. Though I guess not everyone grew up for this… *eyerolls*
pancanikonpus
9 months ago |why spell out my name? anything?
Carl
9 months ago |They miss your countdown already, that’s all.
Timo
9 months ago |I’m with Mr Hogan. 550 is good enough camera. No sense to upgrade for bells and whistles.
If only someone else than Sigma and Leica would make simple basic tool with focus on IQ…
(sold D300 because of too complicated custom options.)
Kalpurush :)
9 months ago |@Timo
Hogan is right? How if I say he is a “Canikon fanboy” – I don’t buy his idea/s anyway!
David
9 months ago |I think we should wait until:
a) PRODUCTION cameras have been tested. Production cameras with production firmware.
b) RAW support is properly established. Lightroom, ACR and any other software isn’t optimised yet for the a77 raw files. Opening them will give sketchy results, which do not represent the true image quality.
Anybody posting ANY remarks about image quality now is premature. Once we’ve seen production a77 samples processed in supported RAW software, THEN AND ONLY THEN should we make these judgements.
This happens every time. With the a700. With the a580. Everyone complains at first, then realises that they panicked about nothing.
slantyyz
9 months ago |Don’t we always panic over nothing?
We live in great times for photography. We’re seeing significant price-performance gains year over year, and we have an abundance of choice. Don’t like Canikon’s platform? Try Sony, Pentax, Olympus or someone else.
Sure there are nits to pick, perfection is subjective.
That we can get something like the A77 for around $1000 is pretty amazing. What would something like that have fetched five years ago? My first digital camera, which shot 1024×768 images, was $800 in the late 90s. Instead of taking the technology for granted and complaining all the time, I am just enjoying the industry progress and choices available to me as a camera buyer.
Ben
9 months ago |Indeed, it is definitely a good time to be a photographer.
brizmako
9 months ago |+1
David
9 months ago |And that was a GREAT review for a $700 lens
Sharp wide open
They said approaching tack sharp at 2.8
And “as sharp as sharp gets” all over at every focal length at f4
Excellent build quality praised too
They said the focusing is very fast indeed
Sounds brilliant for a lens which costs so little!
slantyyz
9 months ago |The 35mm/1.8 and 85mm/2.8 are also cheap and sharp. Sadly, they have plastic mounts. That new DT lens sounds pretty awesome.
acolyte
9 months ago |There was a review that actually wonders whether 35/1.4 G is worth that much more than the 35mm/1.8 DT. DT it is, but the price difference is indeed a step for Sony.
David
9 months ago |For APS-C I think that’s a fair point. Obviously the 1.8 doesn’t work on full frame though
The 35 1.8 build quality is poor, but it’s 7-8x cheaper than the G lens and the image quality is actually excellent!
dyna
9 months ago |Wow. The camera barely exists for 24 hrs and it’s a loser. Even Thom Hogan can’t be that powerful. And since when have Canon or Nikon shunned hyperbole? Preproduction models haven’t been out long enough for the users to know the best mix of settings for jpeg output, let alone RAW conversion. Who’s got a converter? What kills me is how Canon can get away with such horrid color in their jpegs while everyone says “it’s okay, just fix it in RAW.” So Sony comes out with a $1400 camera that out specs any other camera in its price category but also somehow needs to sompete
Holy Bear
9 months ago |24 hours is long enough….remeber NEX’s 16mm lens ? When they first came out people also said they were just pre-production ones you should wait for the retail ones and now we all know that there are no differences in PQ between the pre ones and the retail ones.
Unless Sony redesigns the sensor , nothing is going to change the fact this sensor is inferior to the 16MP sensor used in NEX5N.
Spoon
9 months ago |You are obviously unfamiliar with the meaning of the word “fact”.
Kalpurush :)
9 months ago |“they” are just trolling…
Soon
9 months ago |Double post.
David
9 months ago |Or remember the a700 release?
Everyone said high ISO sucked and the images looked like “watercolour paintings.” Then new adobe RAW plugins came along, and it suddenly got better.
Same for the a580.. at first people didn’t like it. Then they found out it’s the best ISO performance in it’s class.
Carl
9 months ago |The limitation of the 16mm lens is its optical design, which can’t be fixed after the fact. The A77′s JPG engine is software.
Not that Sony is particularly wonderful in delivering firmware updates, my 900 has only gotten one in its entire life.
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |Read everything I wrote. Nowhere did I say the A77 was a loser. However, imagine for a second the exact same A77 with only one difference: that it uses the 16mp sensor and that BIONZ manages to match what Nikon’s EXPEED gets out of that sensor. Would the A77 be any less interesting? Nope. D300s users would flock to it.
What I’m seeing out of the A77 samples so far is the same thing I see in the HX9V images I’ve shot: overhanded NR as a means to control the expected noise of too many pixels. Sony appears to have a design standard: more megapixels and just add NR. That may satisfy much of the market, but I really think that at the US$1400 camera body level you want to put more emphasis on image than that.
Frosti7
9 months ago |DXO sensor mark, or it didn’t happen.
David
9 months ago |Exactly.
Wait for a production model, proper raw support and a DxOMark first.
Chris
9 months ago |be ready to be disappointed ^^
i would have preferred a 16mp in the nex7.. but whatever. i buy a nex5n anyways it can pretty much do anything the nex7 can do
dk
9 months ago |Ready to be surprised
slantyyz
9 months ago |Ready to not care.
There’s a saying that 90% of the cameras shoot better than 90% of photographers.
Shouldn’t that make the DxOMark moot for most of us?
Ben
9 months ago |Spot on. Nothing but fanboys puffing their chests until the real data comes in.
Kalpurush :)
9 months ago |Ditto.
Rob
9 months ago |It’s interesting that some folks rail against in-camera NR almost in the same breath in which they laud in-camera vignetting and CA correction. It’s all manipulation, and–holy cow–none of us have *ever* done any of this in post-processing, right?
Cheers to Sony for not following the same old path as the others. I’d trade my D700 straight up for an a77.
Herrner
9 months ago |“They tested the lens on the new Sony A77!”?
The review says “It’s worth noting that while we didn’t test the lens on the new A77 body.”
acolyte
9 months ago |Seems like Admin fixed
dyna
9 months ago |Okay so the editing link failed. Had to retype after the page closed. Please ignore the comment above.
Wow. The camera barely exists for 24 hrs and it’s a loser. Even Thom Hogan can’t be that powerful. And since when have Canon or Nikon shunned hyperbole? Have you ever read their press releases? Good God, they’re vomit inducing.
Regardless, Preproduction models haven’t been out long enough for the users to know the best mix of settings for jpeg output, let alone RAW conversion. Who’s got a converter? What kills me is how Canon can get away with such horrid color in their jpegs while everyone says “it’s okay, just fix it in RAW.” So Sony comes out with a $1400 camera that out specs any other camera in its price category but also somehow needs to compete STRONGLY with cameras costing thousands more.
I see the Olympus syndrome happening here. Granted, Oly fell off but there was a period where they were totally viable but could do no right, at least where the community was concerned, because they simply weren’t Nikon or Canon. Now Sony has to offer 3x the camera for a better price just to get hyped… and then they STILL get hammered, and mostly by people who’ve never held the damn thing. Innovation at this pace has never been demonstrated by EITHER Nikon or Canon. There will be some growing pains, thankfully buffered by the A55 & A33, but neither will the A77 be perfect. Of course, the D7000 has several well documented issues and Canon has yet another seemingly infinite supply of firmware updates patching faulty OS in the 7D…. but that’s okay. They’re Canon and Nikon.
If a PRO is using the A77, then a majority of the time, especially at higher sensitivities, they will be shooting RAW. Jpegs, I’m quite sure, will suffice for 3200 and under, most certainly 2000 and under…
and people can learn to relax and let the camera air itself out in more than one day. Please.
Marek
9 months ago |Well, some people get nervous because there is not data from SONY yet which would dispel their worries about raw iso performance. I wait for dxomark measurements.
Mark
9 months ago |Agree with everything you said…
dyna
9 months ago |Yep. A lot of preproduction models are hand-tweaked by their manufacturers to give something close to end performance but the fact is that the cameras are simply unfinished. Couple this with the idea that none of the current image software available have proper conversion protocols and you have a good idea of the worst a camera’s images will look, true, but zero idea of the best it can do.
Kalpurush :)
9 months ago |@dyna
Nicely put. Those who are crying here have different goals rather interests in photography. Let the Canikon fanboys cry loud!!!
ihateidiots
9 months ago |Sooo… Has there been many instances where the preproduction jpegs have been substantially different from the final production?
Milos Janata
9 months ago |I basically wanted an upgraded A55 with even better ISO performance, full manual video and same price: 750$
Don’t care about 24mpx sensor ..although some people can benefit greatly from extra resolution.
Terryfried
9 months ago |wait till A55 stocks are down and A65 should be good for you. yes its not up to A77 but should beet A55 everywhere and now the price gap has opend it could be a good seller.
Nash7
9 months ago |Hi guys. I’m a alpha user in Japan.
I can’t wait to see the production model’s test shots, but like other guys said, I’m really disappointed in the image quality of alpha 77 now. Since NEX7 uses the same sensor, I don’t think it can be a competitor of X100 of Fujifilm…
Manxtt12
9 months ago |Haters will always hate.
Ben
9 months ago |I’m not sure what Thom Hogan expects from marketing materials other than marketing. There is a lot of new tech in the a77 and the marketing materials rightly reflect this. Would anyone expect those materials to include sensor charts and ISO samples on the day a new model is announced?
With respect to the ‘obvious hyperbole (“flawless image quality”),’ one only needs to look to Nikon’s line of Coolpix cameras just released:
“Perfectly portable, the P7100 delivers high performance to ensure that images and movies astound you with incredible detail and sharpness.”
“Perfectly” portable? The COOLPIX S100 is smaller, so that pretty much rules out the word “perfect” in my book.
My point is that I recognize marketing for what it is. Actually, so does Thom Hogan, and that is what makes his nit-picking criticism insincere.
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |Touche.
But my point remains. The Sony release seemed very dense with pushing the TMs and buzzpoints. I just didn’t much sense of what the camera would actually do for me because I was being pummeled with marketing speak.
As for Nikon, I’ve lashed their marketing for years. I needed a new victim ;~).
dyna
9 months ago |Thom, I understand. My point is that it seems Sony’s marketing takes the hit… but it’s a hit that doesn’t mean anything. Why doesn’t Canon get pasted when they’ve released their 6th or 7th firmware update, making valid the complaint that they use their faithful as guinea pigs, testing cameras that simply weren’t finished, were released merely to push the notion that putting out a new product means it’s “cutting edge” or “continuing years of innovation” (a Canon favorite). Why don’t they take the hit? This tactic is a terrible form of pseudomarketing and, to me, strikes worse than any piece of press release fluff.
Carl
9 months ago |I’d rather have six or seven firmware updates than zero or one.
It’s not like Sony gets everything right first time around.
dyna
9 months ago |I totally agree. Sony needs a couple but Canon’s quantity just indicates a lack of thoroughness I find disconcerting.
Almazar80
9 months ago |Actually, the jpeg images do look like some fairly strong noise reduction is being used. Of course, the same thing is said about the HX9V. Maybe Sony changed their JPEG engines to utilize overly strong (a subjective opinion) noise reduction routines? I am waiting for RAW file reports and the JPEG engine can be fine tuned. I do think, however, that this camera could very well give Canon some competition in the video capable DSLR department.
I like the A77, specwise. I’d like to see real tests of real production cameras though, before declaring this the ultimate Sony DSLR. Still, there is a lot of promise in this machine and I reckon I’ll get one as soon as I can afford one.
Robby Ticknor
9 months ago |I wish Sony would come out with a new metering mode… ‘meeter on focus point’
i almost never use matrix meter, usually only center weighted or spot. the problem with center or spot is that they are in the center… breaking my rule of 3′rds… so i am forced to meeter, and re-compose at best, and just jacks things up with TTL and flash. Since i choose my focus point, it would be awesome if the camera was smart enough to also use that chosen focus point as my ‘spot’ meeter point.
wonder if a firmware update could bring this?
TA
9 months ago |This is a great idea, who knows if Sony had already thought of it but would only implement this on the next refresh!
vincent
9 months ago |actually if you are using matrix metering the camera indeed taking account on where you are focusing your camera, that’s way if you press the shutter halfway/lock focus the meter are locked, unlike spot/centre that always change even if you already lock the focus…
that’s way the spec tells how many ‘zone’, because the smaller the zone/more amount of zone more accurate the metering is…
i dont know if you want more ‘smarter’ camera, but i think the SLT can solve your problem because the evf can reflect the final result
youdidntdidyou
9 months ago |four thirds cameras have had this feature for 5+ years in live view mode too
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |Nikon has done this, both in spot metering and in using overemphasis in their matrix metering. Unfortunately, it’s not all that great a solution, because what’s under the focus point is almost never middle gray. That means that you have to compensate based upon its tonality, and that’s variable.
The Nikon D80 was notorious for overdoing following the focus point. It meters all over the place if you’re not constantly tweaking it.
youdidntdidyou
9 months ago |very easy to tweak in live view http://www.flickr.com/photos/youdidntdidyou/3403827685/ check the meta, also Olympus has 3 different types of spot metering shadow, average and highlight, piece of cake for a competent photographer
FMJ
9 months ago |wait till the A65 drop in price then….
TA
9 months ago |–Removed, replied to wrong post–
dk
9 months ago |Quite disappointed that uncle Thom had to resort to pixel peeping. Even Hitler wouldn’t go that low.
Ben
9 months ago |The point is that he *had* to go that low to find anything to complain about.
slantyyz
9 months ago |Thom Hogan is right on one thing – the Japanese manufacturers are feeding the never ending stream of kitchen sink mongers. Sony is no exception.
We know the kind, the ones who troll all the sites demanding the full-frame supercam with an ecosystem of a million lenses and other accessories that sells for ridiculously low prices.
“I wouldn’t buy that! I can get xyz for less money (yet I still don’t buy xyz an shut up)!”
“Because that lens is not one stop faster, it’s a deal breaker for me, because obviously I shoot wide open 100% of the time.”
“Please Sony, release a full frame NEX! If Leica can do it, so can you!”
“I don’t like motorized zooms on lenses that are not even targeted to me.”
“An X100 with a fixed lens! Fuji is going to camera maker hell!”
Ben
9 months ago |The Japanese manufacturers are driven to differentiate and innovate (these don’t always go hand-in-hand) by intense competition in the market. Makers don’t want their cameras judged purely on metrics like megapixels, ISO range and burst rates because they can’t encourage consumers to jump brands unless they offer something different. But it also makes them more willing to listen to customer needs and try to satisfy as many customers as possible. The downside is when extra features come at the cost of core functionality, but the jury is still out on that with regards to the a77 and its friends.
slantyyz
9 months ago |My opinion is that Canon and Nikon been a little too comfortable knowing that *perceived* switching costs based on lens investments is enough to really do anything disruptive from an innovation perspective.
In tech, there used to be a saying “Nobody gets fired for buying IBM.” Canon and Nikon are the proverbial IBMs in the camera world. High quality but safe.
All the interesting stuff seems to be happening outside of the walls of the big two. Personally, I’m glad that Sony has gone all-in on SLT and EVFs. You’re never going to satisfy the purists, so why bother?
Sony might lose a few points on IQ, but IQ is so good these days that unless you’re a pro, you’re really splitting hairs.
Carl
9 months ago |I’m confident a full frame mirrorless camera would sell, though.
The problem, I think, is that making an ecosystem for such a camera would be (or is perceived as) too expensive. Whereas the ecosystems for full frame DSLRs are mostly in place from the film era.
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |If you hand me a 24mp camera, I’m going to pixel peep ;~). The only real reasons for more pixels are to crop (meaning the remaining pixels had better be good), or to go large, in which case all the pixels had better be good. But unfortunately, I don’t think you have to pixel peep to see the problems. At least not at ISO 1600 and up.
I would say most of my images in the past two years have been shot with 12mp cameras, despite owning ones with higher pixel counts during that entire time.
(And before someone writes “just downsample the Sony” I tried that. At ISO 1600 it doesn’t match even my D3100.)
Kalpurush :)
9 months ago |(And before someone writes “just downsample the Sony” I tried that. At ISO 1600 it doesn’t match even my D3100.)
^^^ really Thom? You have sold your soul right there.
dk
9 months ago |I’d be really interested in seeing a scientific comparison between a downsized 24mp image from this camera to whatever you have with your D3100.
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |Define “scientific” and I might do it. The problem with a lot of the commentary about image quality is that it is all subjective or the measurements are all faux. I trust my eyes, mainly because I spent decades training them (you may remember that I spent four years running a magazine that was using images from some of the best in the business–we spent hours every day looking at and discussing small differences and whether they were important or not). My eyes tell me detail is being lost, even in the downsample at higher ISO values. At least for JPEGs.
I think I wrote this somewhere before, but broadly speaking, Canon and Fujifilm JPEGs seem to be the best out of camera. Nikon is just behind them, with pluses and minuses that are highly argued (Nikon uses a different way of getting to JPEG, and it has the net effect of not being as sharp, even with sharpening set high, but with very few embedded JPEG artifacts that will bite you later if you start moving values). Olympus is right there with Nikon, though they push saturation and contrast too high for my taste. Pentax isn’t far behind. The three companies that seem to lag in JPEG output are Panasonic, Samsung, and Sony. So far, the samples from the A77 seem to match what I’ve seen off of other recent Sony cameras.
For an A77 shooter (that would be someone who really needs a high-end camera and isn’t just buying for the rub-off prestige of owning a high-end camera), the real story will be in the raw files. Since we still don’t have a fully optimized raw converter, the jury is still out.
Dan K
9 months ago |wow, that is some indictment…marketing buzzwords in a press release. the gall! back to the drawing board, sony!
it just sounds to me like a nikon fanboy getting nervous.
slantyyz
9 months ago |Thom Hogan did a ranking of JPEG engines a while ago, and IIRC, according to his findings, Canon’s was at the top.
I don’t think it should be any surprise to Thom that Sony’s JPEG engine hasn’t jumped to #1 overnight. This is primarily an incremental *hardware* release, it would take Sony years to catch up with Canon’s JPEG engine, which is software.
Knowing his own ranking, it seems to me that he should have qualified it with “but I should have expected that, because Sony’s JPEG engine still needs work. I’ll let you know what I think of the RAW files when I see them.”
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |There’s nothing keeping Sony from improving their JPEG engine to match Nikon’s. All they have to do is license the same algorithms from the same third party ;~).
The problem is I see a pattern on Sony’s part: they’re moving aggressively with the pixel count and relying upon NR to cover up blemishes. That now is starting to apply to everything from the bottom of the line to the top. That’s not a good sign, because it seems to imply intention.
slantyyz
9 months ago |If it was so easy as licensing, wouldn’t everyone license from that third party? And if Canon is really the best at JPEGS, why lower the bar by licensing Nikon’s JPEG engine?
No argument on pixel counts. What percentage of photographers out there **really** needs 24MP? If we were to apply the 80/20 rule, I tend to think they’d fall in the 20% range.
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |No. Different makers have different intentions and values. As good as Nikon’s JPEG rendering is, it is also somewhat controversial, as it produces what many feel is slightly soft output (even with higher sharpening levels). Nikon values exceptionally clean files that are closer to neutral than some of the other companies.
What I see in Sony’s recent JPEG rendering is a pattern: they’re consistently valuing lack of noise over other parameters. They must believe that this is what their target customer wants, because that sort of decision doesn’t come randomly.
dyna
9 months ago |Wild. I’ve done shoot outs, direct to print, between the E-5 and the 7D, for folks doing landscape. We set up outside and, lo, low IS, the E-5′s jpegs simply look better in print than the 7D. What’s good is so often determined by the user’s paradigm…
I realize it’s neither here nor there… just making a statement.
I’ve some outstanding stuff shot solely in jpeg on Sony equipment, and some not so stellar. Some of the lack of lustre is in part due, perhaps, to some processing deficiencies, sure… but I’ve little doubt that some of that lack is perhaps attributed to my own deficiencies as well.
dyna
9 months ago |Wild. I’ve done shoot outs, direct to print, between the E-5 and the 7D, for folks doing landscape. We set up outside and, lo, low ISO, the E-5′s jpegs simply look better in print than the 7D. What’s good is so often determined by the user’s paradigm…
I realize it’s neither here nor there… just making a statement.
I’ve some outstanding stuff shot solely in jpeg on Sony equipment, and some not so stellar. Some of the lack of lustre is in part due, perhaps, to some processing deficiencies, sure… but I’ve little doubt that some of that lack is perhaps attributed to my own deficiencies as well.
Carl
9 months ago |They should have taken Minolta’s one half a decade ago, rather than sticking with their inferior one and being constantly behind the curve ever since.
magellan
9 months ago |I agree, I would also prefer if Sony would invest less in pixels & more in the JPEG engine. It’s not by incident that the A900 with 24 MP is still top after three years. However, the difference is that the A900 has been bought because of its high resolution whereas the A77 is going to be bought in spite of it…
However I wonder whether it is really that easy to license a third party engine…? Please explain…
Lonnie
9 months ago |Thom’s just mad that all he gets to play with today is a bunch of new coolpixs. LOL.
slantyyz
9 months ago |And his prediction was wrong. He said that Nikon would be announcing new DSLRs.
Sky_walker
9 months ago |it’s not first nor last time when he is wrong.
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |Actually, I don’t think I was wrong. All along I’ve said Nikon has at least one September announce date planned, and I still expect to see systems cameras then. That’s the way Nikon rolls: financial statements first, Coolpix announcements second, systems camera stuff last. Usually they do it in a three-week stretch, but this time it appears it’s stretching over a month. I suspect that Sony’s long and loud run to August 24th made them decide to avoid that date.
slantyyz
9 months ago |From ByThom.com “They’re obviously talking about some new products on the 24th (same day as Sony). There are three possibilities, I think: (1) Coolpix only; (2) Coolpix plus the new mirrorless system; or (3) FX DSLRs. No one knows which it will be, but I wouldn’t get upset if what they announce this month isn’t what you wanted them to. Nikon is not done with announcements this year. As for me, I’m still betting that we’ll get #3 in this week’s announcements.”
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |Actually, I got a bunch of Olympii and Panasonics to play with this week. I’m headed into the woods as we speak.
Kalpurush :)
9 months ago |Thom, having a bad day? Please go out and shoot, you will feel better
Tj
9 months ago |I think that in a time where features are the biggest difference between cameras, quality, well I guess magnesium body, weather sealing, fantastic design, wonderful ergonomics, highly customizable functions, and 4 years in design doesn’t demonstrate quality then nothing will. The only thing I really take to heart, is yes I would like a less heavy noise filter
Mikeshashimi
9 months ago |Haters gonna hate, simple.
Carl
9 months ago |Seems so.
What amuses me is that most of the people who engage in slagging of products or people are quite normal and sensible people in real life. But put them in front of a keyboard and the nastiness will flow like a river.
slantyyz
9 months ago |Even worse, put them in front of a steering wheel.
Necrosony
9 months ago |To all you people who keep saying that these early jpeg samples mean nothing:
Why is it that the jpegs from the a77 are worst than (in terms of details) those from the a850 at high ISO?
I think there 2 possible explanations:
1. Raw images from the a77 are better than a850 but the jpeg engine from the a77 is inferior.
2. Jpeg engine from both cameras performs similar but the raw file from the a77 is inferior (e.g. more noise therefore the jpeg engine’s NR needs to be more aggressive, and therefore, less details).
It’s hard to believe that the a77 has an inferior jpeg engine. It makes more sense to think that the a77 has more noise at high ISO, considering it’s an APS-c with high megapixels.
Given that the a850 is damn unimpressive at high ISO, what does that say about the a77′s high ISO performance?
Almazar80
9 months ago |Actually,I like dpreview’s assertion that they will do a full review when a production camera is available to them. If you look at the samples at imagingresource, it seems apparent that there have been some changes on the JPEG engine in the A77. The noise reduction seems a bit higher on the A77 than the A850, but even imaging resource said that its only at high magnifications that the “smudge” factor becomes readily apparent. The HX9V JPEGs show similiar characteristics. We’ll see how the RAW files are and how good/bad the JPEGs are on production level cameras really are soon enough. As far as high ISOs are concerened, it appears that ISO3200 quality is quite good but we’ll have to wait, once again, for production level hardware to get a better idea on how this performs.
Necrosony
9 months ago |Is the NR more aggressive because sony’s engineer wrote a new algorithm that is inferior to the a850′s jpeg engine? or is it because the a77 is noisier at high ISO? I think the latter is more likely but like you said, we will find out soon enough.
Robby Ticknor
9 months ago |Are all the cameras being compared to the a77 full frame? that’s kinda unfare… there should be a few APS-c’s included in the comparison.
Necrosony
9 months ago |Yes it’s unfair to compare it with the canon 1ds and nikon d3x but not so with the a850. A lot of the newer aps-c dslrs has better IQ at high ISO. This is why I’m disappointed at the fact that the samples from the a77 is not better than the a850, even if the samples is only in jpeg.
David
9 months ago |You say the a850 is unimpressive, but really it isn’t unimpressive. On test charts of 100% crops it may look worse, but real life performance still beats the a580 or d7000 cameras.
For “normal” sized images, ISO3200 is absolutely useable. The noise is bad when you look at it 100%, but that’s equivalent to standing 12 inches away from a print over a 6ft across… absolutely ridiculous.
And yes, any comparison to full frame is unfair anyway.
And I believe it’s mostly situation number 1. An inferior jpg engine. Not to mention it being a pre-production sample.
The EXIF from the imaging-resource review doesn’t even say a77.. it’s some prototype model number!
Dan K
9 months ago |a850 is still a full frame sensor, which is always going to have a big advantage over APS-C on noise. it’s just physics. the NR HAS to be more aggressive.
comparing a77 to $5,000 FF canons and nikons — and even to the a850 — is simply unfair. let’s see some comparisons to the 7d.
FullFrame NEX (24x36)!
9 months ago |What is Tom’s problem with Sony?
Sony is handing the competition their teeth but
Tom never has anything good to say about Sony.
Sony is on the right track and has my camera money this year.
Please get cracking on a Full Frame NEX, Sony!
acolyte
9 months ago |FF NEX = definitely not 2012 >.>
Lonnie
9 months ago |He’s scared of the competition…
youdidntdidyou
9 months ago |he has only good to say about canikon, he’s serving his own self interests, but fortunately events beyond his control are now over taking him…
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |> Sony is handing the competition their teeth
Really? Nikon is having a US$1 billion profit year, what’s Sony’s Imaging division doing?
> Tom [sic] never has anything good to say about Sony
Guess you didn’t read my NEX-5 review, then (e.g. “the Sony clearly is the leader here and gets well into DSLR territory”).
Wheelus
9 months ago |Thom. If you were in a distant third place, wouldn’t you kick up the marketing and the number of features on your new camera if you wanted to improve your bottom line? Let’s give Sony credit for shaking up the industry. What will you be saying about Nikon and Canon when they come out with their 32 megapixel cameras? Will you be saying that they should have stuck with their 12 MP cameras?
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |I actually think Sony did a fairly good job overall with their marketing (including things customers don’t see). The press release, however, seemed boilerplate buzzword, and undermined the message somewhat. The A77 is the most important product Sony has launched to date. If it fails to gain against D7000/D400, 60D/7D, then it means Sony won’t make inroads in the traditional DSLR market. To me, the announcements, including the press release in support of it, felt weirdly “old Sony.”
“Number of features” isn’t what’s important, by the way, it’s the sum of the features that is. Consider the statement “We’ve made a high-end consumer DSLR that is more complete, more functional, and performs better than those from the long-established leaders” versus “We’ve made a DSLR with TruX, TruY, and TruZ.” One of the things that Apple does so well in marketing that none of the camera companies match is the bold assertiveness BACKED by details. The camera companies are still hooked on DETAILS with hopes of winning. People pick up on the subtle unstated low self-esteem difference, I think.
As for pixel count, we had a long run-up in compact cameras to 14 and 16mp and then it became clear that less was better: we got a slew of 10mp cameras with fast lenses that did better in low light. To some degree, the camera makers are disingenuous: you buy a low-end compact with 16mp and discover it really doesn’t deliver at ISO 800 so you go back to the store to find that the camera maker is happy to sell you a higher-priced camera with 10mp that will do just nicely. Or a DSLR.
acolyte
9 months ago |Remember that it’s nice to get different views on Sony. Unlike Canikon we don’t want to filter all the analysis bullying Sony and only care about the ones glorifying Sony.
When you get a Sony camera, don’t expect that it’s the best in the market or they trump Canikon’s. Expect that it tries to be unique. Not original, but unique.
And know that some people (your rivals?
) will not like the brand, but if you’re satisfied with it, that’s good enough.
After all, do photographers not change gears after 10 years? If they don’t, what’s the %? Heck, someone even reminded here that DSLR hasn’t been around that long
All in all, I’m glad just through SAR I can track reviews from different perspectives
And I think quite a number of us by now know which reviews to ‘trust’ or ‘take seriously’ or neither, right?
Frank Withers
9 months ago |I shoot with the A850 and Zeiss lenses and when people look at my images, they always ask “was this shot with canon? Is this with the 5dmkii?”
No, it absolutely isn’t, because using those cameras side by side I can say I’ll take the color output of the A850 ANY DAY over the dull, noise free images of the canon.
At any rate. Until you can look at an image and somehow determine what camera took it, shutup about DXO Mark. What makes my photographs good is not in anyway related to the emblem on my camera body.
I will say that the vertical grip of the Sony series is fantastic, whereas the nikon and canon counterparts feel like a dog toy- ergonomics is what drove me to the A850, and the image quality is good enough to make everyone think I shot it with Canon anyway. Not that I give the slightest damn about it.
http://www.flickr.com/frankiewithers
G
9 months ago |Firstly, I honestly neither know nor care who Thom Hogan is, or what he thinks!
I agree with all the comments above re waiting for proper RAW support. Personally I never shoot JPEG so a properly processed RAW will be a better indicator of IQ for me. BUT my judgement will be based on what I think when I can get my hands on an A77 myself.
Thanks to Andrea for keeping us all up-to-date throughout the day. Keep up the good work buddy.
ghj2
9 months ago |The Nex5N would be more than enough camera for me- if only Sony had a decent lens lineup. They need to put some resources into developing decent quality, affordable, compact lenses. I really hope Samsung can come out with a camera as good or nearly as good as the 5N. Cause the Samsung lenses are killer.
Sky_walker
9 months ago |In recent livestream guy told that Sony will focus on pancakes after filling basic holes in the line-up. Like it did with telephoto and portrait lens today.
ghj2
9 months ago |Thanks Sky Walker. That’s great news.
vX-2
9 months ago |“…emphasis on features is missing the point of how photography works in the future…”
It is ‘OK’ for Thom to live in his own world while ‘Technology and Features on camera progress. It’s like asking:
1) Why need a smartphone when u can do the same with a netbook/laptop and a regular phone?
2) Why need a big screen on ur smartphone? Put a juicy CPU on a 3.5″ screen phone is enough.
3) Why need all the extra features on a camera like A77 and etc.
4) Why need a tablet? Why a Kindle Why a pad?
5) Why 3D?
Let’s not forget, it’s not too long ago that HDRi is a post-processing method… and now? It’s already in the heart of entry level cameras. As well as, panoramic stitching/ shooting. And not too long ago, there’s a company that has created a software+hardware camera which allows you change focus point, blur-out background, lomo and etc.
Of course, mr.Hogan can still live with his D2X. But while he turns on his computer to upload his picture and blog of his whereabouts. I would’ve 1-clicked on the A77, uploaded the picture on flickr and GPS where I’m at already.
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |To be accurate, HDR was indeed an in-camera thing over 20 years ago. The only thing is that it was in cameras in spy satellites/planes. A lot of the things that we see in the camera industry today came out of government espionage work or space work (e.g. NASA). That’s true of stitching, HDR, deconvolution, well, the list goes on and on, so I’ll just leave it there.
You also seem not to have read everything that I’ve wrote. I’m all for a communicating and programmable camera. I personally don’t get a lot out of GPS because I pretty much always know where I’m at ;~). But I certainly can imagine quite a few things that the camera/software should be doing for me, rather than my having to build elaborate workflows to do the same.
vX-2
9 months ago |Of course every thing comes/ derives from the “Government”. E.g. Internet, hello?? The point is commercializing it and making it affordable to consumer reach. Back in those days, getting a server is not even affordable, not to mention the sheer size of a server (like a football field vs. the current blade server?). Nowadays, we’re getting cloud server service provider. Mr.Hogan, I don’t really understand what you’re trying to get to with your 1st paragraph.
What Sony is doing is APPLYING technology as a common feature and marketing it to the consumer. By doing so, they’re hoping to give their product(s) a “competitive edge” (separating themselves above and beyond what other competitors didn’t do) / or in laments term, creating “a niche market for themselves” (in Business management it’s known as “Blue Ocean Strategy”.
I don’t know how old are you, but I think you’re sorta developing a generation gap (slowly). Alright, please don’t get mad, I’m not insulting you being old or what not. Just because you don’t utilize the GPS function as much, doesn’t mean that it’s not useful. Here are some useful ways:
1) Yes, you know you’re going to climb Kilimanjaro. Great!, you got there, you know where you’re heading, the direction and all that stuff…While you’re jungling on the foot mountain, out of the blue, a very rare type of bird/ insert/ reptiles came across you. You then capture it. Great shot! 5 months later, a friend who’s about to go Kilimanjaro asked for your advice and where did you get your shot at (or around which vicinity/ area). With the help of GPS function, you’ll be able to deliver the message accurately to him.
2) Built-in-GPS-camera has another example of usefulness; especially for bird-watchers-cum-shooters. If you go back to the trail for 5 years in a row, you have manage to collect a good random shooting-spot for your bird. It’s just science and statistics that the next year you’re expecting to get them within some distance of the spotter-area.
3) I know you planned your trip ahead to where you wanted to go to, but with a GPS status updates, your audience will be able to keep track of where you’re heading to and what you’re up to. Hence, your audience outreach and updates are more up-to-date; In another instance, you photographed pictures to let your audience to enjoy, why not the same with the capability of instant upload built-into the camera? (without the need to actually open up the comp and type it. Sorta like a social-network enrichment.)
4) You received a last minute job. You uploaded a picture, and from the picture GPS data, your foreign friend has noticed that you guys are in the same country. So, he/she send you a msg for a quick meet-up, coffee, tea and chat.
The list can well go on…. Anyway, in regards to workflow:
Don’t some built-in HDRi/ panoramic features of camera reduced some of the workflow that you spoke of? -Quality vs. convenience of course. But if you took 600 of pics…. errr, having such feature is handy, no?
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |> Alright, please don’t get mad, I’m not insulting you being old or what not.
No offense taken. However, I’ll point out that virtually every young generation thinks that they know more than their elders only to learn that their elders actually knew a thing or two.
> Just because you don’t utilize the GPS function as much, doesn’t mean that it’s not useful.
Don’t disagree at all. But let’s be careful here: putting GPS in everything has a real cost–it makes what you buy more expensive, so it had better deliver something useful to a large majority of users.
> a friend who’s about to go Kilimanjaro asked for your advice and where did you get your shot at (or around which vicinity/ area).
I’ve been able to do that without GPS for 40 years. What amuses me is when you just give someone GPS coordinates, they think that’s enough. After you’ve had your GPS device try to lead you over a couple of cliffs, you start to understand the value of maps ;~).
> It’s just science and statistics that the next year you’re expecting to get them within some distance of the spotter-area.
Still don’t know why I need GPS for this. If I’m feeding the GPS coordinates to a scientific study, it’s one thing, but for me to get to the same spot certainly hasn’t proven to be a problem without GPS.
> with a GPS status updates, your audience will be able to keep track of where you’re heading to and what you’re up to.
One thing that IS different between younger and older generations right now is the expectation of privacy. Being 100% public about where you are every second and what you’re doing is indeed a generational difference. Someone my age isn’t interested in it. I don’t value myself on how many Likes I have or whether random people can find me at any given time.
> Sorta like a social-network enrichment.
You used the word “enrichment” as if that’s a given about social networks. That’s clearly debatable. Indeed, I’ve been in a lot of those debates with friends still in Silicon Valley trying to build better social networks.
Photos are both private (memories) and public (sharing experiences). Certainly there are reasons to integrate them into social networks (both the Internet kind and the old-fashioned face-to-face kind). Behind the scenes I’ve been sharing ideas about how that should be happening, and I’ll eventually write about that on my site.
But we’re quickly turning into a “track everything” society. That has implications that are as yet unknown. I’ve lived through a few of these “technology changes everything” upheavals, and there are always unintended consequences. Before we rush into saying every device should have a GPS tracker in it, we might want to think a bit more about the implications.
> You uploaded a picture, and from the picture GPS data, your foreign friend has noticed that you guys are in the same country. So, he/she send you a msg for a quick meet-up, coffee, tea and chat.
Not much of a friend if I was in the same country and they didn’t know BEFORE I shot a single picture.
> Don’t some built-in HDRi/ panoramic features of camera reduced some of the workflow that you spoke of?
No, not really. If anything, they tend to increase it. This was a point I made to Nikon when I was there last year. I’m not against a built-in function, but the problem is that at the high-quality levels I need, I can’t fully trust it. So, if I take my D5100 and shoot an HDR JPEG with it, I now have to shoot a raw sequence to get the underlying data, and then when I get to the computer, I have to do something to tie the JPEG to the raw data (and any eventual different variations I create). Of course, if I’m not really all that interested in absolute quality, then just taking an HDR JPEG serves just fine. What that should tell you is that there are different audiences and different needs.
> But if you took 600 of pics…. errr, having such feature is handy, no?
You’re way too low. On a typical trip–my current one being an example, 1000 pictures a day is an average day. Having some HDR JPEGs scattered in there doesn’t really help me, as I noted above.
Fredrik
9 months ago |Thom is butthurt over his false FUD rumor that Sony were dropping the FF cameras.
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |Seems like everyone likes to shoot the messenger. Go back and look at exactly what I wrote. I wrote that Sony upper management was trying to get Sony Imaging to kill the FF stuff because it was not producing financial results. I also wrote that Sony Imaging was fighting back. Indeed, some of the leaks about this fight were directly out of Sony Imaging. They were trying to rally customer support without appearing to.
I personally would rather Sony made FF cameras. It puts more pressure on Nikon and Canon to do the right things and stay competitive rather than sit on their butts. Competition is good, not bad.
Quite frankly, I just want better tools, and I don’t care who they come from. The fact that I have a business that sells things about Nikon cameras is actually a bit of decoy. As it turns out, Nikon users buy more books about cameras than Canon users, or Sony users, or any other user, so of course I’d target them first. But it has nothing to do with who I think makes a better camera. (Though to be honest, nothing right now matches a D3s and D3x combo.)
Lee
9 months ago |I cannot wait to see the ff a99.
Get ready for the coming a99
Lee
9 months ago |I cannot wait to see the ff a99
Get ready for the coming a99
Frank Withers
9 months ago |“(Though to be honest, nothing right now matches a D3s and D3x combo.)”
Nothing matches their price either.
If you really think the images you create from D3x are superior to those made on A900 and Zeiss, to the point where one can recognize which was created by which without pixel peeking.. well quite honestly I think you’re an idiot.
sora3
9 months ago |Frankly, I don’t give a sense over what Thom really thinks. It is his opinion and his alone. However, if he’s doing this to get hits (which I’m certain), then I’m sorry to say that I cannot take him seriously.
Sure, the JPEG photos are horrendous, but do you really need to blast Sony in this regard? I think (and this coming from someone who has used K-M to Sony Alpha for some time) the JPEGs are great, even high ISO ones. True, the noise reduction is pretty heavy-handed but that’s expected from Sony. Sony isn’t a great imaging company like Canon and Nikon so it’s about time to just accept that fact and move on.
You were given a pre-production sample. Read the big sentence next. PRE-PRODUCTION SAMPLE. In other words, you’ve been given a camera that is close to production but may not be representing the final product. I think this slipped your mind and you were fooling yourself in that this is a complete product. Wrong and wrong again Thom.
And Sony killing FF? I doubt it. They know they want that slice of the pie. But they have to do it their own way, even if it takes a bloody long time. Sure, this a700 replacement took them 4 long years but it was 4 long years that is bloody worth it. What are Canon and Nikon doing? Refreshes of their line really. Sony is moving away from the traditional market where Canon and Nikon are dominating and developing their OWN identity for their cameras. I was given a choice before in using Canon or Nikon. But other factors forced me into K-M and finally Sony. So I like being different.
magellan
9 months ago |It would be very sorry if Sony accepted not to be a great imaging company…
Holy Bear
9 months ago |JPEGs taken by A77 looks bad because A77′s sensor is too noisy and needs strong NR.
Sony’s new JPEG engine is great , just look at the JPEGs taken by NEX3C and NEX5N.
Wheelus
9 months ago |I have to admit that I’m a little confused about the JPEG thing. People like Thom Hogan rant about how terrible Sony is and how great Nikon is in his blog where he passes judgement based on his experience as a professional photographer. But I thought all “professional” photographers used RAW and that JPEG was for the “unprofessionals.” I’m not a professional photographer but I always shoot in the JPEG+RAW mode. The reasoning is that if I want a quick and dirty photograph, I will print a JPEG print. If I want something to hang in a gallery and to sell, I will go into RAW and spend some time producing a fantastic print. Am I the only one who thinks this way?
Thom Hogan
9 months ago |Professional photographers shoot what is needed. Sometimes that’s JPEG because of time constraints, though more and more of even the time-constrained publications are asking for raw files as the workflow has gotten better.
However, readers of my site aren’t generally professional, they’re aspiring photographers. Time is important to them, so JPEG is something that needs to be discussed. Also, while I happen to like Nikon JPEGs, they are not everyone’s cup of tea. For example, Nikon has opted for lack of artifacts over things like “sharpness.” This bugs the heck out of some Nikon users because they don’t want to post process their JPEGs, but feel they have to in order to up the edge acuity. I don’t have a problem with that because I value a base image that can be improved versus a base image that has improvements in it that can’t be undone. That’s the reason why I don’t like the recent Sony heavy-handed NR. Once NR is in a file, you can’t back it out.
Finally, I have to admit I don’t know if Sony handles this consistently, but on a Nikon you don’t need to shoot JPEG+RAW (even though it’s provided). Every Nikon raw file has an embedded JPEG BASIC LARGE image in it, so you can just extract that if you need the JPEG and save card space.
Wheelus
9 months ago |Just a a matter of interest: I just read the review at B&H Photo on the A65 and the author of the review says that B&H agreed to NOT publish photographs taken with the A65 because it is a pre-production model. Have all the other professional reviewers jumped the gun rushing to be the first to review the new Sony cameras?
pancanikonpus
9 months ago |“cease fire! cease fire! …”
lol
I have read all replies. It was funny! I do believed Thom is as usual to received tremendous critism from many as long as he written blog or something about speculation or review.
Anyway, I am not a fanboy to “Pancanikonpusamny” as call out as my name
basically I just follow camera feature and try to invest a camera that worth with it money or a ‘mature’ camera, simple as it!
As others, I am also put high hope in Orange77 and hopefully the SLT in low cost production could sell at lower price. 2 expensive parts penta mirror and OVF are salvaged, no articulating screen. But the price is not that attractive.
Anyhow, thank you for someone call out those the gap that cause a chaos in current situation of the 0.x Fw and pre-production camera images. Also thank to Thom mentioned the NR method used by Sony in this case. But we still need to wait for depth review for final conclusion.
I choose to hold my tempting, althought have waits for almost a year and sold out 600D expect to go with Orange77, now seem is impossible. $2000 is lot money for a poor boy
as i do not sure Orange77 is it worth for this bucks. Sony already named Orange77 will be the APS-C flagship camera, I says NO 
A flagship camera must not remove its previous generation Good feature while IQ remain neutral wait for production unit review. Definitely Sony Orange77 will wake up Canikon 
So, come back to layman term “buy fast enjoy first, buy late enjoy discount”. there will be more revolutionary camera come, Panny Global Shutter is coming. Continue to wait and read more depth review