(SR5) A77 has an “electronic first shutter curtain”!
According to bullet proof sources the A77 will have a very short release time lag thanks to a sort of “electronic first shutter curtain“. Michael Covington’s website explains what it is. The electornic first shutter curtain begins the exposure electronically with zero vibration: “In fact, as I understand it, the “electronic first shutter curtain” is a virtual moving edge just like the real shutter curtain, so you can use it even with short exposures. Columns of the sensor are turned on one by one just as if the real curtain were exposing them. Because a CMOS sensor can’t turn off as quickly as it turns on, the real shutter curtain is used to end the exposure.”
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kangzai
2 years ago |erm… getting more special leak outs…
admin, is there gonna be a “SR5″ saying that the A77 will turn to a robot when you say “Alphabots, Transform!”??! LOL…
Mike
2 years ago |The A77 must be Chuck Norris. The A77 has no shutter lag and no GPS delay – both are too much afraid
round-planet
2 years ago |Could that shutter be working this way:
* mechanical Shutter always open
* Receptor working through electronic shutter for EVF
* start acquisition using electronic shutter
* End acquisition closing mechanical shutter for analyzing the target, then reopening the mechanical shutter
Carl
2 years ago |The only plausible explanation I can think of is that it initially fires like an electronic shutter, but then fires the second curtain of the mechanical shutter to complete the exposure, for the sake of reducing rolling shutter.
But is this really SR5?
admin
2 years ago |yeah!
albin
2 years ago |That could explain the no limit in speed for Flash sync mentioned in a previous rumour.
But I don’t understand why we have 2 shutters though???
Carl
2 years ago |Focal plain shutters can’t be used during video, and are very kludgy to use during live-view, so modern cameras also support taking exposures from direct sensor read-outs, aka an electronic shutter.
Sky_walker
2 years ago |http://www.caspegroup.com/How%20an%20electronic%20shutter%20works%20in%20a%20CMOS%20camera.pdf – Page 4 and further. Explains quite well why you need mechanical shutter.
The first curtain doesn’t need to exist as long as you can initialize all the pixels simultaneously. But you can’t just shut them off after exposure and read the data, so you need a second curtain to be mechanical part covering the sensor during read process so that no new photons would hit the sensels.
Totalreader
2 years ago |+ 1 new feature
+ 100$
Sky_walker
2 years ago |If that will help eliminating issues with CMOS sensors – I can pay 100$.
CMOS is great for video and high-ISOs, but when it comes to everything else the CCD still rules the world (that’s partially why Hassel or Phase One never moved to CMOS) – it’s more mature technology with far less issues with it comes to photography itself. Never the less CCD advantages don’t make cameras sell better – higher ISOs, videos and more megapixels do, so… not much to discuss, CMOS rules the world.
pancanikonpus
2 years ago |So can i says Hassel and Phase One suck in video, i mean totally suck in video
but CMOS is not totally suck in still rite 
Sky_walker
2 years ago |They don’t have video. They are cameras. Like: Cameras. Not multi-purpose devices with interchangeable lenses and phase detection AF -> the direction to which current cameras evolve.
But yes, CMOS doesn’t sux totally. Sure. It just sux from time to time
M
2 years ago |This fiture is also part of Canon cameras, see page 13 of the following PDF:
http://www.komar.org/faq/camera/canon-40d-versus-rebel-xti-400d/Canon-EOS-40D-White-Paper.pdf
Unfortunately, it is not described how it works.
Fuzzphoto
2 years ago |All, if not most Canon live-view enabled cameras have this feature, so it’s really nothing new. I have no info on this, but Sony main-sensor live view cams probably all have it too.
Source: http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html
Sky_walker
2 years ago |Rly? So it actually doesn’t help with anything? Crap.
Carl
2 years ago |Ah yes, I’ve heard of Canon’s silent mode, but I didn’t realise it used a mechanical second curtain.
The results look pretty impressive at macro magnifications. Not sure how much of a gain there is for normal photography, but I look forward to finding out.
pancanikonpus
2 years ago |fast fast find out it
thx Carl
Carl
2 years ago |No, adults like myself have learnt a thing called patience.
pancanikonpus
2 years ago |True! you are Carl, not Cow
john
2 years ago |I remember reading something about a similar feature with an older Nikon camere(D200?) which had a silent shutter and 1/1000 flash sync speed.
Would be a very cool feature depending on how it was implemented.
Sky_walker
2 years ago |@Carl “Not sure how much of a gain there is for normal photography, but I look forward to finding out.” – it seems that the difference doesn’t exist at all.
Marketing materials look stunning, but so far I haven’t seen even a single DSLR test to confirm their results. No Canon camera actually outruns previous Sony cameras in matter of resolution by as much as this marketing paper would show.
So I think there’s nothing much to get excited.
Which is a little bit pity.
Carl
2 years ago |I will come to my own conclusions about the matter. Mirror slap certainly robs photos of noticeable amounts of sharpness at longer shutter speeds, and I regard MLU as an essential part of a serious camera. I obviously can’t measure the effect of shutter induced shake with my current camera, but I’ll take an open mind to the subject when it comes time to upgrade.
Sky_walker
2 years ago |I’d like to be surprised… but no big expectations. After all if this really gives some good benefits than at least one camera using it should show them, and yet I haven’t seen any Canon having outstanding advantage.
Carl
2 years ago |There are certainly shots from Canon users showing the benefit. Here for example;
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/905512
But as the gains are primarily going to be in higher magnifications, longer focal lengths, and longer shutter durations, they aren’t going to be the sort of thing that Joe Blogs with his consumer grade Rebel is going to ever take advantage of.
Getting nice sharp photos at 400mm and above is hard enough, so I’d happily take any help I can get.
Raghav
2 years ago |@Carl:
That link certainly shows some advantages of using this Electronic First Shutter Curtain.
Thanks for the link!
Booe
2 years ago |Why ‘mysterious’?
R1 had it, as do Canon DSLRs use it in liveview
pancanikonpus
2 years ago |my god, i didnt feel anything in my ex-600D camera about this curtain shutter …
Booe
2 years ago |http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html
You might test if your camera has it by removing lens and doing long exposure shot from liveview.
Don’t forget to check for “silent mode” to be enabled.
Mahmoud
2 years ago |Can we expect reviews (by dpreview for instance) on the day the A77 and the new 16-50mm SSM are released??
admin
2 years ago |Previews at Dpreview, and some review on other websites. Follow SAR and I will give you all the links you need
Jakubcz
2 years ago |Reviews yes…by dpreview? definitely not…
john
2 years ago |According to DPR the A55 was announced Tuesday August 24th/2010:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1008/10082421sonyslta55a33.asp
And did their review August 2010:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta55/
which gave them less than a week so they must have been working on it much before the announcement.
I guess a lot has to do with how much lead time DPR get with a production model how fast they review the A77 but seeing how it is one of the most anticipated cameras in many years I would expect it very close to announcement.
Maximus
2 years ago |Why? dpreview has reviewed every new camera till now? Why not the Alpha 77?
Simoquasimo
2 years ago |If this camera is really going to be only 1000 euros it’s a must buy! (Maybe I have to start thinking of selling my a55)
okee81
2 years ago |Sound good.. Look forward to the fully specs.
Do somebody know the MTTF or MTBF of the EVF camera’s? or what will the MTTF or MTBF from the A77?
Also I will know the bracketing specs of the A77. photos with big stops between possible??
I hope one of the source can tell more..
smena8m
2 years ago |Good explanation and samples are here: Canon “Live-View” with an electronic first shutter curtain: http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html
Jennzhen
2 years ago |Yes, good explanation that it might reduce IQ degradation due to shutter vibration.
pancanikonpus
2 years ago |today is 8th August, 16 days to go orange7 & orange77 annnouncement!!!
today is 8th August, 16 days to go orange7 & orange77 annnouncement!!!
today is 8th August, 16 days to go orange7 & orange77 annnouncement!!!
I hope the price to be cheaper as POSSIBLE
a lot accessories i want to buy as well.
Carl
2 years ago |I do wish you’d be quieter as POSSIBLE.
pancanikonpus
2 years ago |hi Carl, long time not see you. How are you there
Carl
2 years ago |How? I type things into the reply box and then click the submit comment button.
Or were you asking a different question?
Sky_walker
2 years ago |We shall not crack.
pancanikonpus
2 years ago |The Great War “Pancanikonpusamny” 24th August 2011
pancanikonpus
2 years ago |Now our mission, is to assemble an “Elite Team” to kick off operation “kick Ass” hack on the Orange777 firmware, when it is enable 120fps FHD, 1D MK V is wounded
Carl
2 years ago |I pity the fool who thinks that’s possible.
E
2 years ago |probably not. but a Low-Res, Hi-Speed mode would be nice from the start.
Milos Janata
2 years ago |Maybe They should hire some engineers from Casio
scrubb
2 years ago |Does that mean A77 can sync flash at any shutter speed?
Jacky
2 years ago |I don’t think so.
Because the mechanical second shutter curtain is still required when the shutter close.
Steve Jones
2 years ago |Almost certainly not – it doesn’t change the fact that short exposures will essentially just be a narrow strip moving vertically as it just substitutes the leading edge opening of the shutter with an electronic operation that zeroes the row readings.
The only way that very high speed flash synch can be provided is with a flash gun that produces lots of very short (and necessarily much weaker) flashes, so nothing changes on high speed sync.
Fuzzphoto
2 years ago |An electronic shutter can only be used to start the exposure. ending the exposure is only possible by physically covering the photo sites. So the electronic curtain will have to travel across the imaging sensor, because the the second curtain *must* do that. Ergo, no gain in flash sync speed over a fully mechanical shutter.
But the gain is: the shutter release delay is less than a conventional DSLR.
José Magalhães
2 years ago |shared also here:
http://atributos-1.blogspot.com/2011/08/sony-a77-esta-para-chegar.html
Jacky
2 years ago |So it means that the A77 will have a silent mode.
During silent mode, “mechanical first shutter curtain” will replace by the “electronic first shutter curtain“, so that shutter lag, noise and vibration will be reduced.
Am I correct?
E
2 years ago |That seems right.
Carl
2 years ago |Well, in theory.
In execution, it’s harder to say. Sony’s current SLT cameras have just as much shutter lag (~50ms) as normal SLRs, despite not having a mirror to move (and are noticeably worse using flashes). By contrast, the pellicle mirror based Canon EOS-1N RS has a significantly shorter shutter lag (6ms).
A fast, silent shutter is the ideal, but no amount of technological progress will help if Sony doesn’t make use of said advances.
Steve Jones
2 years ago |Sounds plausible – it would require close co-ordination of the clearing down of photosensor rows timing with regard to the closing curtain. In effect the exposure would start when the pixel row values were zeroed and finish when the leading edge of the closing shutter passes.
So, not a bad idea, but it sounds as if Canon may have got there first.
Steve Jones
2 years ago |Incidentally, for those that doubt using an EVF with an SLT has benefits to still photographers, this is one of them. This sort of electronic shutter only gains full benefit if you don’t have a mirror to flip out of the way. With this approach and the sensor already exposed, it’s possible to start the exposure almost the instant the button is pressed. With a tradition SLR (unless in Liveview mode) there will be a delay – perhaps of a tenth of a second or more – before the exposure can start.
Of course mirrorless system cameras can do the same thing, but only if focus has been gained, which is usually slower with CAF.
Sky_walker
2 years ago |Steve – Canon cameras used this with no mirror slap and no notable lag. The electronic front shutter curtain was available only after mirror was raised and live view turn on. It was like… a small bonus to live-view mode shooting from what I see.
Steve Jones
2 years ago |@Sky_Walker
If you read what I said I mentioned Liveview mode. However, Liveview mode on a Canon SLR is not normally very useful where speed of response is required where fast AF is normally a requirement too. With the SLT approach PAF is available all the time.
Rushmore
2 years ago |Of course no shutter lag is good and all
but with EVF this is kind of point less.
Unless they completely eliminated the EVF lag.
(or at lest made it “noticeable”)
E
2 years ago |? What makes U sure that the EVF lag will be bigger than the mirror movement lag on all dslrs? I’d dare to say that the lag have every chance of being lower on an slt than on a mirror based design.
Rushmore
2 years ago |I noticed this when I am taking pics of Kids running around.
They are so fast, with EVF I was always looking at the “PAST”
so when I press the shutter the moment is gone already.
so minimal shutter lag… that’s great….
but with EVF I am still looking at the past when it comes to fast action.
that’s all I am saying.
For this reason A55 EVF was unsuable for me,
So I have high hope for A77.
AlphaSd
2 years ago |i want mechanical shutter
dac38
2 years ago |And i want a fully electronic shutter with 0 shutter noise – with an option to generate a cheesy custom shutter electronic sound. Like “Hello – You got shot” in a sexy female voice
Carl
2 years ago |Be careful what you wish for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmenFwP1dG0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX5h2HrA5YM
dac38
2 years ago |Ha ha
my next camera, most likely.
Steve Jones
2 years ago |There is a mechanical shutter. Who said there wasn’t? Just on the first photo the opening curtain is effectively electronic. Closure is mechanical as will any subsequent shots in a sequence.
PhotoNut
2 years ago |Since the camera is an SLT, the shutter is always open until exposure time when for other SLT cameras, the shutter first closes to begin exposure sequence, then reopens again to allow exposure and then closes to allow read-out and then opens again after read-out is complete. Double the number of shutter activations for normal (D)SLRs.
With Electronic First Shutter, the sensor can be reset for exposure without needing the shutter to be first closed, then exposure can take place before the final shutter close for read-out and then re-open again. That saves one shutter activation and probably reduces shutter noise.
HMB
2 years ago |That’s true. But conventional DSLRs need for mirror-up time. So, generally the SLT is faster than conventional DSLRs.
zeissgit
2 years ago |are you getting this info off of one source?
admin
2 years ago |No, from many!
RiceHigh
2 years ago |It could be an external electronic shutter, e.g., a LCD one, used to shut off all the incoming light and let the sensor discharge/reset right before each exposure. As the LCD shutter’s switching is almost instantaneous and is much faster than a mechanical one, the system time-lag until the actual exposure is much reduced. As for the need of a true mechanical shutter, it is just the same reasons for why it is still needed.
Fuzzphoto
2 years ago |An LCD needs a polarizing film to actually block any light, and that is most definitely not the case here. Read my other posts on how an electronic shutter works. It’s actually a feature of the image sensor.
RiceHigh
2 years ago |Pseudo shutter of the image sensor does NOT work in this case as the sensor needs to receive NO light from *external* before it can be reset.
Swemba
2 years ago |Anybody want to buy an A33 LOL?
pancanikonpus
2 years ago |Admin,
does the video AF tracking remain the same as A55 or have improves further? will video AF in sony better than Nikon Full Time AF and = Af101
GH
2 years ago |What about the NEX-7? Will it have the same shutter option?
Darren
2 years ago |I wish Sony would start thinking improving photography and not ….. oh wait.
b shaw
2 years ago |Although I haven’t thought this through thoroughly yet, I can see a lot of benefit of using electronic shutter for a next generation of MFNR. That is, instead of using multiple mechanical shutter activations for the MFNR, they *might* be able to use multiple electronic shutter activations and only one mechanical shutter activation. Photon ‘bleed’ between frames wouldn’t matter as much because the scene hasn’t changed.
… hmmmm …..
For what it’s worth, this trick might be how they can get to those high ISO numbers.
What does everyone think?
Herman
2 years ago |Dear Admin,
Could you kindly ask your trusted sources about max video recordal length with the A77? I would like to sometimes record events (e.g. speeches) lasting between 20 – 60 min.
In a big photographer’s shop here in Munich, Germany i was told by a senior expert that “out of legal reasons related to the ARCHD video/cinema format”, e.g. the Nikon D7000 is allowing only 12 min (or 10 min? – can’t remember exactly) of video recording, after that time span you have to restart the system. Perhaps they are afraid that you go in a cinema and record the latest movies and then illegally spread them via internet, something like that, i guess.
Thanks in advance for your answer and keep up your real exciting and entertaining project!
Kind regards,
Herman
SonyA77
2 years ago |Depends what file format the camera uses, if it is FAT32 then you’ll hit the 4Gb limit very quickly anyway. I am hoping that they use an extended format (exFAT) that allows greater than 4Gb file size, no idea what the A33/55 uses.
The next problem is the 30 minute limit imposed by the EU. Still cameras that can record greater than 30 minutes are classed as video cameras and attract a 12% (I think) import duty. By setting a 29:59 limit, the camera is cheaper.
Lastly there is the sensor overheating issue. Electronics get hot, as can be seen on the A33/55. The magnesium structure of the A77 might help dissipate the heat better.
All of this suggests that you will not get more than 30 minutes at the most, but we shall see.
Herman
2 years ago |Thank you so much sharing your knowledge on the technical limits of video recording with still cameras. Btw i did not know about the 30 min limit imposed by the EU.
In any case, let’s hope Andrea will be able to collect some breathtaking news on this…
Davide Atzei
2 years ago |The a33 is completely unusable on a studio session because of his stupid electronic viewfinder. Does the a77 have the same stupid lag? In the case, this camera is really a non professional camera as the major of sony cameras…just toys! nothing for serious users?!?!?!
fotowolf1
2 years ago |Andrea:
I noticed that you have removed the “micro AF adjustment” feature in previous rumor posts. Why did you do this? Is this not valid anymore? I hope micro Af adjustment is still in the specs, otherwise the A77 turns out to be less usefull for many out there. I don’t want to send my equipment and body to service for adjustment for 4-6 weeks to fix the focus. This would be insane. It would also be a VERY BIG drawback and classify the A77 as definitly non-pro, as all the competitions and even Sony itself has micro AF for its pro models A850/A900 to be adjusted thru the camera menu.
Please can you double check what has happend with the AF module features and give us a SR5 confirmation?
Thank you!
admin
2 years ago |I didn’t remove anything! I only posted the rumor I got form one of the sources. That list didn’t include all features! I am right now working on a post that will sum all the A77 (and other camera) features sent by me from ALL sources!
fotowolf61
2 years ago |Sorry, it was a SR4 rumor on July 25, saying Af fine tuning capabilities …..
and it is still there. Sorry for this.
It would be great if you could confirm as SR5 the AF fine tuning capabilities through the camera menu like with the A850/A900 and not through Sony service.
Thank you!
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