Why the Sony a77 changes everything (Kirk Tuck)! Why Sony has got it wrong (David Kilpatrick)!
Kirk Tuck explains you at Visualsciencelab (Click here) why “Sony gets it when everyone else is stuck at 2004“. According to him “The real story, besides the translucent mirror, is all about the EVF and that’s where the revolution exists. While most of the old timers who grew up with luxuriously bright prism finders will howl in derision the reality is that a superbly made EVF has many advantages.” He ends the article with the following statement: “If this camera, with its 24 megapixels, 60fps video and miracle finder actually works as well as it’s spec’d, and the images are commensurate in quality to their pixel quantity, and the asking price is around $1500, then why the hell wouldn’t we buy it? “. And now read the full article at Visualsciencelab!
And David Kilpatrick explains at Photoclubalpha (Click here) how Sony should change their transparent mirror position in order to eliminate the ghosting effect: “So, Sony, when you make you that full-frame EVF camera change the entire approach. Position the SLT mirror so it reflects the image sideways, upways or downways! And put the SENSOR where it receives the image from the REFLECTED lightpath. Make the mirror reflect 70% of the light and transmit 30%, instead of the other way round.” Read the full article at Photoclubalpha!
ALL Preorder links:
Sony A77 with 16-50mm lens at Amazon, Adorama, Jessops UK and Sonystore.
Sony A77 body only at Amazon, Adorama, Jessops UK and Sonystore.
Sony A65 with 18-55mm lens at Amazon, Adorama, Bhphoto (notification only), Jessops UK and Sonystore.
Sony A65 body only at Amazon, Adorama, Bhphoto (notification only), Jessops UK and Sonystore.
Sony NEX-7 body only at Amazon, Adorama, Jessops UK and Sonystore.
Sony NEX-7 with 18-55mm lens at Amazon, BHphoto (notification only) and Sonystore.
Sony NEX-5N with 18-55mm lens at Amazon, Adorama, Bhphoto, Jessops UK and Sonystore.
Sony NEX-5N at Amazon, Adorama, Bhphoto, and Sonystore.
Zeiss 24mm f/1.8 E-mount at Amazon, Adorama, Bhphoto (notification only) and Sonystore.
Sony 50mm f/1.8 at BHphoto (notification only), Adorama and Sonystore.
Sony 55-210mm E-mount at Amazon, Adorama, Bhphoto (notification only) and Sonystore.
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Comment from erwinkfoto: As far I know, they DID indeed change th...
Comment from Q: I don't see where David has pointed out ...
Comment from AlphaMounter: David Kilpatrick may have been relevant ...
Comment from Raghav: +3
That would be the perfect camera f...
pancanikonpus
9 months ago |Hehe ^.^ grab 1st sofa v(^.^)
Alpha Mark
9 months ago |i’ll take the 2nd position then.
Zstan
9 months ago |So what’s next Sony? New lenses?
pancanikonpus
9 months ago |-removed-
Sky_walker
9 months ago |“surprise solution in VF for FF SLT.” – he really used words “surprise solution”? This makes me very interested in things to come…..
mugen
9 months ago |source ?
admin
9 months ago |Hi P.! Can you please share the soruce of that info?
pancanikonpus
9 months ago |Andrea, apologize, i just have fun with Zstan. my bad
admin
9 months ago |ok!
Carl
9 months ago |Topest? DIDを? Sigh.
“伝説の後継のA900の代替” is a bizarre tautology.
Marcohard
9 months ago |What’s next? Of course FF cameraS!
Kiril
9 months ago |David got it wrong!
By the time A99 ships the translucent technology may be no more.
SAR recently published about Sony patents that allow the phase detection sensor to be built into the main image sensor.
So I hope A99 has no mirror what so ever – ideally it will be an over sized NEX with A-mount.
PS I hope for compact Full Frame NEX-9 too with well corrected Leica M9 like sensor that too includes phase detect AF.
Sky_walker
9 months ago |“By the time A99 ships the translucent technology may be no more.” – not gonna happen. +PDAF on sensor isn’t accurate enough due to it’s physical size. But keep on dreaming… maybe one day they’ll figure it out how to overcome the PDAF on sensor limitations.
admin
9 months ago |KIril, there will be a huge surprise. You cannot imagine yet
frosti7
9 months ago |the agony….andrea we beg of you…throw us a bone
i’m off to pray to the mirrorless god for a nex ff
giovanni
9 months ago |mirrorless god = lucifer .. u beter pray to the real god!
Carl
9 months ago |We could imagine it if you’d just tell us already.
Gorn
9 months ago |Now wait!
There’s something more you could share? Why not just do it
Could be a small SR1…noone would notice…just..just..don’t write these kinds of comments without further explanation
frosti7
9 months ago |Because the information wasnt approved by SISMI,
i’m betting were going to see a nex-5, or nex-7 styled body, but alpha mount FF
emopunk
9 months ago |As long as it’s A-mount, I am really happy..
Clyde
9 months ago |I figured it out. If I shake my Alpha JPGs like an old Polaroid SX-70 and let it finish developing under my armpit for an extra 10 seconds, it greatly reduces shadow noise.
hanugro
9 months ago |In 5 years, even a-mount might go mirrorless.
Puting the sensor as recepient of reflected light is a nice idea, but can the AF sensor work if ghosting happen to land in the sensor?
So which one you accept, ghosting visible in 0.1% of pictures or AF is not reliable enough (maybe more than 0.1% since we know that translucent mirror generate this so called ghosting but only in very rare circumstances it is visible.)
Sky_walker
9 months ago |Well… David had nice idea, though issues with polarization of reflected light or weight of huge chunk of glass inside the camera might be impossible to overcome, sadly.
john
9 months ago |Yes still no clear line of site to sensor,heavy, expensive and with sensor 90 degrees to the lens mount HOW DO YOU CLEAN IT?
Sky_walker
9 months ago |Well, you don’t have to clean it much if a good anti-static surface is applied. Usually things fall down thanks to gravity, not up.
But if something gets stick strong enough to overcome force of gravity than I guess usual cleaning applies with stuff like lenspen, only you won’t be able to use all kinds of cleaning accessories.
“still no clear line of site to sensor” – actually in his idea there will be a clean line of sight from lens to sensor. That’s the basic principle of his idea. Light is reflected but there isn’t anything through which light needs to come through. Though the light reflection still creates more consequences than just image reversal.
john
9 months ago |Well, you don’t have to clean it much if a good anti-static surface is applied. Usually things fall down thanks to gravity, not up. But if something gets stick strong enough to overcome force of gravity than I guess usual cleaning applies with stuff like lenspen, only you won’t be able to use all kinds of cleaning accessories.
Dust usually falls down not up but I still have dust in my OVF which is above the sensor and 90 degrees to the lens mount.
Lens pens aren’t made a 90 degrees. Hard to see around 90 degree corner unless you use the 70% reflective hunk of glass in this implementation that prevents the “clear line of site”
““still no clear line of site to sensor” – actually in his idea there will be a clean line of sight from lens to sensor. That’s the basic principle of his idea. Light is reflected but there isn’t anything through which light needs to come through. Though the light reflection still creates more consequences than just image reversal.”
I guess you missed my point.
In a traditional DSLR with moving mirror there is a clear line of site from rear element to sensor WHEN the mirror is flipped up during exposure.
SLT has fixed mirror so no clear line of site.
In DK’s implementation there is STILL a fixed mirror complete with light altering effects so “still no clear line of site”
Steve Jones
9 months ago |I’m not wholly sure David Kirkpatrick’s post isn’t slightly tongue-in-cheek. One problem I forsee is that cleaning the sensor is going to be a tricky job. It’s going to be very close to the surface of a delicately coated mirror, at an awkward angle and what you see through a cleaning loupe will be mirrored so you’ll need a bit of mental dexterity.
matgay
9 months ago |David Kilpatrick does not care about size or weight of a camera from his diagrams and ideas. David Kilpatrick = FAIL!!!
Carl
9 months ago |It’s nice to see some alternate thinking about the construction of a EVF DSLR, even if David’s idea has its flaws.
Some things (horizontal/vertical switching viewfinder, a la Dimage 7) make so much sense I can’t work out why they don’t do it, and some (‘Blad style rotating sensor) would make life so much easier, and open up new form factors as the camera won’t need to be holdable two ways.
matgay
9 months ago |rotating sensor is a BIG no-no.
Steve Jones
9 months ago |Indeed – if somebody wants to rotate the aspect ratio, it would be far easier to put a square sensor in place and crop and rotate it appropriately. A 24mm x 24mm sensor would allow for portrait and landscape mode APS-C (as well as a new square mode) at the cost of having a slightly larger shutter. Of course the sensor would cost a little more, but presumably less than an existing FF one.
It would even be possible to pull the same trick at FF with a 36mm x 36mm sensor, but a full square mode 36 x 36 probably wouldn’t be possible (as the corners would probably fall outside the image circle). Also the shutter would have to traverse a 36mm high sensor so it would no doubt require a bulkier body.
In comparison, having rotating sensor assemblies with the required degree of precision and mechanical robustness whilst maintaining all the electrical connections would probably be more difficult to achieve.
Carl
9 months ago |Both Hasselblad and Mamiya make rotating backs. Do their cameras have insufficient precision?
J
9 months ago |If we are going to consider rotating the sensor, why not also move the plane for built-in tilt and shift? I know it is unlikely, but if we are dreaming, that’s my dream.
Clyde
9 months ago |Being a fashion photographer who shoots 99% images vertical, I too have imagined a rotating sensor allowing grip to remain constant position. Rollei 6008 comes to mind with rotating backs.
Anything that would remove the heavy left leaning of vertical shooting would be much appreciated. When will camera designers wise up and start producing systems that keep lens balance directly over the hand to elbow support… It gets tiring shooting vertical all day with any vertical grip throwing balance heavy left.
Elbee51
9 months ago |A square sensor would solve this
Carl
9 months ago |If you shoot in aspects wider than 3:2 you’d end up wasting half your pixels that way.
LifeStoryImages.com
9 months ago |David Kilpatrick has it wrong. Reflecting 70% off the front of the beamsplitter does not eliminate the ghosting off the other surface from getting into the sensor optical path.
David Kilpatrick has it right. A solid prism with 70% reflecting face would eliminate ghosts, and the sensor would simply be on the side or top of the box rather than the back; it would still be accessible. But heavier.
– Bert, optical systems designer.
Clyde
9 months ago |Kilpatrick quote:”…Make the mirror reflect 70% of the light and transmit 30%, instead of the other way round.”
Great Idea David! That’s all we need is less light getting to the imaging sensor. Brilliant! We can market the extra noisy light loss images as a special feature… “Permanent Dark Light High Grain Mode!… Exclusively from Sony”. Yeah… that’s exactly what we want.
slo.metallc
9 months ago |@Clyde
did you acctually read the article?
the amount of light reaching the sensor in a77 or in Killpatrick’s design is the same. but in Killpatricks idea the sensor is on the right side of the mirror, whill in a77 it’s on wrong side… in a77 the light travells trough the mirror and in Killpatricks design light is reflected by mirror and doesn’t pass through glass (if you dont count the lens)
Daemonius
9 months ago |Thats actually very good idea, switching EVF and sensor. Light loss would be same, but no ghosts at all.
Btw. idea of SLT isnt exactly new. Canon made Canon 1N RS, which was.. suprise film SLT camera. They had zero OVF blackout, cause they positioned shutter behind mirror, not in front of it. Maybe Sony should do same, although it wouldnt be that small then.. (though A77 isnt small at all
).
Steve Jones
9 months ago |What are you on about? The Shutter on the A77 is behind the mirror (as it is on every DSLR ever made). The reason that the Canon 1N RS did not have blackout was because OVF (pellicle) mirror remained in position all the time, although the penalty to be paid was that it provided a relatively dim image. The Canon 1N RS and A77 might share a pellicle mirror, but the designs are radically different in other aspects. For instance, the Canon did not have continuous auto-focus as it relied on a smaller AF mirror sub-assembly between the pellicle mirror which has to be flipped out of the way before the shutter is opened.
In the case of the A77 there is no EVF black-out as such, but what does happen is an increased delay in the refresh rate during exposure, the exact nature of will depend on exposure.
Maximus
9 months ago |again: the Mirror has nothing to do with the EVF, the signal for the EVF come from the main sensor. The mirror reflects somelight to the AF-Sensors
Cliff
9 months ago |It seems to me that some of this argument can be neutralized but adding a flip up action on the mirror. The top hinge can be on a “track”. There can be a simple lever for manual movement or button (for servo driven movement)
Next, add firmware that switches over to NEX 7 type contrast focus.
The user could have the best of both worlds. In daylight, the user can run with phase detection mode, in low light, the user can switch to manual or contrast mode for additional light gathering.
I mean,…yeah. Crazy fast auto focus is nice and it seems like Sony is putting a very high value on that feature. But forcing that feature and a locked down mirror on the user at ALL times and shooting conditions?
Ehhh,….why doesn’t the let us choose when we need it!
30% light lose is a high price to pay under low light conditions.
NEX 5N and VG 20 appear at this early stage to be Sony’s top overall performers…they have the raw mathematics on their side! (larger photosites, and 0% light lost)
Cliff
Swemba
9 months ago |It this guy is such a good engineer, why doesn’t he work for a company like Sony?
ScottD
9 months ago |Better yet, just go mirrorless on every camera if the EVF is so revolutionary. It negates the need for a mirror all together imo.
Cliff
9 months ago |Having the phase detection is extremely nice,…”when” you want it and are will to trade off the light loss.
Super simple, not rocket science!
CLiff
Cliff
9 months ago |Can anyone think of any negative factors from having a flip up translucant mirror?
What technical problems would that cause?
It seems to be a perfect “win/win” situation.
Cliff
ScottD
9 months ago |Hence this is where the LA-EA2 adapter would come in handy. You can use it when you want to and then take it off for when you don’t.
ScottD
9 months ago |(of course it would have to be a model that fit A Mount to A Mount)
acolyte
9 months ago |The atmosphere I’m getting is that people are making wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much hype about A77 – both the defense and the attacks.
There’s too limited people who had hands-on and even those who do, either not had it for long, pre-production, or just reviewers who can’t wait to sound as if they critically review the camera (Oh it’s so good! or Sony got it wrong)
I’ve decided not to pre-order the A77/NEX 7 until closer to the date. It sounds like we need more reviews. The reviews starts to sound subjective rather than objective. The reviewers seems to want to spit out their ‘expertise’ than telling us ‘is this the right one for you?’
But, at the same time, these reviews are all we got to understand the camera.
I suggest we stay at the neutral side for now. All the hype is clouding the important information.
I am a technical person, and it is exactly the reason why I don’t like for explanation to be explained too technically. For technical people, it helps justify listeners why the listeners should listen to them. For the listeners, it all sounds like bells and whistles.
Just get on and tell us the actual ‘experience’ rather than the numbers and drawings.. :
EDIT: Not all the reviewers are like this I’m sure, but after all these reviews, it’s getting hard to filter out which one to sieve and which one to keep. Doesn’t mean that their reviews are bad – it means peer pressure. Just like how everyone tries to have an article on A77 minutes after the announcement because they’ve prepared, checked the draft, and have it publish-ready weeks ago.
ScottD
9 months ago |never mind
Dman
9 months ago |I believe Bert may be correct. Though it has been years (& years…) since I studied light & optics in my Physics studies I still recall that every time a light wave comes in contact w/ a new medium there is a corresponding reflection AND refraction (transmission at a different angle)correspond to the angle of incidence of the light wave itself.
It may depend on which side of the mirror (even though it is super thin) the reflective material is on. The mirror in your bathroom has the reflective (silver) side on the backside of the mirror.
The light waves hit the front surface of the mirror, creating a very slight reflection, but mostly refractive transmission through the glass, to the silver, which is then reflected back through the glass to the front surface where another change of medium causes yet another slight refraction.
Or something like that…
See here for better explanations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction
A picture is worth a 1,000 words, but perhaps Bert can explain with words in better technical detail than me.
Carl
9 months ago |I would assume all pellicle mirrors are of the first-surface variety.
sleekdraft
9 months ago |hi andrea/admin, do you know anyone/link who tested the new 16-50mm on a different alpha camera, say on the a580, a55, a700, a850/a900 or even on the NEX systems with the adapter. I wanna know how this lens perform on other cameras. based on the a77 reviews, the sample images with it seems on par with other kit lenses. my question is, how big of a difference would the 16-50mm f/2.8 make an impact on photos from kit lenses or third parties (i have a sigma 28-105mm f/2.8–great lens). It’s not a zeiss nor a G lens but if it performs close to those, in terms of (primarily) sharpness, bokeh, etc., i would definitely get it with the a77. Otherwise, if it’s performance is only a little better than kit lenses, then would only root to buy a77 body only.
cyrus
9 months ago |Hi Andrea,
Once you said there will be 3 Alpha bodies.
Is there any hope of the A55 replacement (small body)
As they did it with A33-A35 just updating the sensor with new generation one.
I hope for an A5x with a low consumption 16mpx and Oled evf.
Just a perfect camera for some…
123
9 months ago |+1
Raghav
9 months ago |+3
That would be the perfect camera for me too… The A65 with the old 16MP sensor.
Peter
9 months ago |Be aware that if you order from Sony, you will not be able to return it. Sony does not follow its terms of service, and does only allows returns 30 days from the date of order (not shipment). If the camera has flaws, you’re stuck with warranty repairs. Sony will ship slightly sooner than competition, but if you’re willing to wait a couple days extra, it’ll give a lot of added security.
Clyde
9 months ago |They dont need a transparent mirror. What they need is a transparent imaging sensor with the AF mechanism directly behind it. I’m ready to believe that Sony has licensed LYTRO technology for our next generation. This transparent mirror business is designed simply to overcome a few immediate technological hurdles whilst at the same time bending the minds of traditionalist togs to finally get over their unwarranted clinging to antiquated SLR design philosophies.
Think about it. Digital photography wasn’t fully embraced until manufacturers conceded to letting go of some very novel and promising design advancements, and instead, at the plea of togs, in the name of tradition, foced the technology to work inside SLR designs no more advanced than the finest and last generation of PRO Cams like a Maxxum 9 or an EOS 1, or a Nikon F5. Our current crop of PRO digital systems are based around 10 year old tech. As photogs who insisted on this, we’ve finally arrived at gotten exactly what we asked for. And in the process, ended up ignorantly holding back where digital could have been heading all along. Companies have listened, and now we know that pop eats itself with extremes of designing digital like the Fuji x100 to emulate even older designs.
Finally… No more. We sit now on the cusp of future design advancements which should have been implemented over a decade ago. Finally, camera design is free to advance and evolve the way it should have been all along. I for one, am quite eager for it. Finally, no more digital cameras wearing film camera costumes.
Jakop.com
9 months ago |Just made the buy, body only a77 from your sites link. Looking foreword and hope that I don’t wait to long. Have a few projects & lens I would like to test this on. I can’t wait for the FF a99 also. Will likely sell my a700 a900 & a77 for the a99 in the near future.
ageha
9 months ago |Sony DSLT-A77 and 16-50 f/2.8 SSM hands-on review: http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/threads/957709-Sony-DSLT-A77-and-16-50-f-2.8-SSM-hands-on-review
TypeZeiss
9 months ago |I can’t take the David Kilpatrick article seriously seeing as how he hasn’t even used the a77. he claims to fix a issue that Sony says they have already sorted out with the new design, so then whats the point of his article?
Cliff
9 months ago |I can’t wait to see an image quality shoot out between the A77 and the Nex 5n.
Anybody willing to bet on who they think the winner will be? (Hint: the laws of physics are very tough to beat!) Lol
Cliff
AlphaMounter
9 months ago |David Kilpatrick may have been relevant back in the 90′s when Minolta had really awesome SLRs, but he has proven to be less than helpful in the digital age.
Overall, he hasn’t been anything else but a glorified pixel peeper. I will concede the fact that he hasn’t gone to the extremes of Carl Garrard of Alphamountworld, who went from being a Sony lover for life to a Sony hater for life because Sony wouldn’t play ball with him the way he wanted to, effectively destroying his reputation among Alpha users.
But then again, Kilpatrick hasn’t provided anything else besides his constant criticism of Sony’s ideas and his “it can’t be done” rants. Anyone remember when he said “SSS can NOT be implemented in a FF camera”?
If he hasn’t used the A77 yet, I don’t know on what grounds he bases himself to criticize the camera or the SLT idea the way he does. Seems to me he is pulling the same bitchy attitude of Garrard because he didn’t receive an invitation for the release event at Greece. If he wasn’t invited by Sony to the product release event, it must have been for a reason, probably because of his overcritical article of the NEX system when it was launched…
The best that can happen to us is that he finally switches to Canon or Nikon and let’s the Sony systems be. He doesn’t really provide anything useful to the Alpha community and I don’t see why so many people reveer him like if he was a source of wisdom that would help anyone get the best out of his or her Alpha cameras. He is more fixed on pointing all the flaws and how the cameras are useless to make photos.
It is a true fact that no camera is absolutely perfect, but there is a stark difference between pointing out the pros of it and how to overcome the cons, than insistingly saying that Sony makes crap. If you don’t like Sony, there are plenty of systems to switch to. Just do it already!
Q
9 months ago |I don’t see where David has pointed out that the A77 or the SLT design from Sony is “crap”. In this article David actually discusses a way by which Sony could improve upon the SLT design by eliminating the rare ghosting effect with a simplistic redirection of light
In other words, “overcoming the cons” as anyone may put it.
Also, Carl is big supporter of the A580 and believes it to be a splendid camera in image quality and functionality. He has his criticisms of Sony, and quite frankly any A-mounter from the last three years would.
If anyone takes the time to read either Carl’s or Davids useful insights properly, one can only see their relevance in the Alpha mount community and the need for them in the future.
erwinkfoto
9 months ago |As far I know, they DID indeed change the “translucent” mirror design (coatings?) and overcome the ghosting problem in it’s mayority.
And the mirror (already in A55) had never 30% loss, as it reflects only on small surfaces where the AF sensors look on,
not the entire surface.
The loss is something between 5-10%.
And yeah, the sensor has a slight different sensibility on those areas, but you just can’t tell, as it is clever solved.
And that’s why you cannot actually flip up the mirror on actual models.
Maybe with A99 they find a solution.
I already have an idea, but I just won’t give it away, Sony should rather contact me
ps: Andrea, contact me (about a “festival”
)