Sony vs Leica reloaded. RX1 vs $8,000 Leica M. Will Sony kill Leica?
What a luck. Some of the commenter’s on SAR argued that the Leica M-E cannot be compared with the Sony RX1 because the Leica uses an older sensor. And guess what happened. Right now DxOmark published the full Leica M results too (Click here to see the test). You may don’t know it but the Leica M has a Full Frame 24 Megapixel sensor like the Sony RX1 and costs $6,995 at BHphoto (Click here). And this is the price you pay for the body only 
Accoridng to DxO the Sony RX1 again outperforms the Leica. At that point I am wondering what will happen with Leica if Sony really launches the $4,000 NEX-FF. Will Sony kill Leica?
padam
3 months ago |It still does not measure how many really good photographs are there made with Leica and Sony. That should matter more than 0.1 bits of DR and stuff
Rob
3 months ago |The DR range difference is 1.1, not 0.1, or 11X greater difference than you report. Not a trivial amount.
Denis
3 months ago |It’s not 11 times difference, but 2^1.1≈2.14. It means the tonality of RX1′s ISO800 would be about the same as M’s ISO400. Anyway, any value above 22 bits considered to be excellent. Quite a good performance for M, by the way. It outperforms the 5d2 in all aspects of sensor performance and solidly matches (IMO even outperforms in general) the 5d3: the high ISO performance is only 0.27 stops better with canon, but the DR is 1.6 stops better with leica.
The leica also outperforms any APS-C camera including any NEX. So I see no reason Sony could kill it (you cannot change lenses with RX1, right?).
Sky_walker
3 months ago |Sony won’t kill it because people buying Leica are not those who buy NEXes, and the other way around.
People who buy Sony care about 1.1 EV higher dynamic range and 674 higher ISO score on DXO.
People who buy Leica care how lens draws picture, how colorful it is, if body is a tool, not a gadget, how it performs in field, what’s the history behind it, how it was made, etc. etc.
These two groups of clients are so different that if they blur (eg. people buy NEX instead of Leica, or the other way around) it’s only at the very edges. And in no way whatever Sony does under it’s own brand will influence Leica.
Rob
3 months ago |I’d like to disagree with you, but your argument is too clear-headed. Damn you!
Hendrick
3 months ago |And… it clearly shows that, again, the RX1 is not such a bad priced cam after all. I am saving to get one. Please, God, help me get a nice profitable job so I can just buy one off the bat!
Thank you.
Grev
3 months ago |Oh you don’t know Leica has very bad repair policies and bad servicing now? You make it sound like Sony (as a general term) is just not as good as Leica but the very thing that Leica appeals to are pretentious people or people that has the money to buy it and store it away. A NEX with Leica lenses is a very good combo, stop blowing out of your ass.
Kevin
3 months ago |There are another large group in between, like Leica lens but don’t care too much about camera body. They will probably buy Nex-9 (once available) and attach their Leica lens to it.
Sky_walker
3 months ago |Grev – Nikon too has very bad repair polices, but noone seems to care. (in Poland there was even a huge action called “Polish Nikon Service” where unhappy customers united to fight against Nikon service in central Europe – the event on unprecedented scale which hit a newspapers at the time)
Kevin – these are desperate NEX users who know there’s hardly any native lens they could use on their bodies to push them to the boundaries.
hehehehe
James
3 months ago |I disagree entirely. I was a Leica M6 user, went to DSRL and hated them (for a number of reasons) and have settled on NEX.
Zohee35
3 months ago |Might want to read again, he was talking about the *difference between the difference* of 0.1 and 1.1 stops, not between 25.1 and 24 stops.
Denis
3 months ago |The difference between DR = 14.3-13.3 = 1.0. 25.1-24.0=1.1, so I guessed he confused DR with portrait depth.
Hendrick
3 months ago |F@#k yeah! sony rules!!
Sky_walker
3 months ago |O_o
Vlad
3 months ago |It does show what you pay for though.
Q3photos
3 months ago |you mean the Hasselblad Lunar?
Sky_walker
3 months ago |this one does show – you know: crocodile skin, silver surfaces, etc. etc.
St.
3 months ago |if it’s 4k no, but for 3k – definitely!!!!
ethan
3 months ago |It should be priced at about 2700. Sure its a smaller body, but consumers still see bigger dslr=better. Which in most cases is true.
St.
3 months ago |+1
I do agree!
Denis
3 months ago |In europe RX1 costs €3k>$4k. So Andrea is right. Ridiculous pricing. And remember the rumored NEX-9 at the price of $4k which transforms into €4k≈$5200, which already rivals Leica pricing ⇒ Leica should not worry about someone kill it.
ethan
3 months ago |People will still buy Leica because of the name, regardless of performance. Good to see Sony doing very well in terms of tech and iq.
Q3photos
3 months ago |Yes people buy leica only for leica. change the color set and you can sell the leica for 15x more limited hermes. imagine a sony rx1 that sold for $30,000 because it came in charcoal leather instead of black.
Vlad
3 months ago |OMG.
“a fixed lens cybershot”, so you are using a naming convention as a point against it?
“Sony still have to prove they’ll be there for the long-haul.”
I believe that is pretty clear already.
“Leica lenses are better than anything Sony has.”
While not necessarily better, Zeiss lenses are available for Sony cameras, delivering more than decent results, with autofocus and better range.
“Leica sell more than cameras. They have a legacy and that offers security.”
Give me a break. What security? That they will continue to build under featured old technology cameras for exorbitant prices?
Vlad
3 months ago |Oops, that was for Sam. I hate the commenting system here.
admin
3 months ago |me too
going to change it completely as soon as I can!
Vlad
3 months ago |Sounds great
Sky_walker
3 months ago |This would be brilliant!
Sam
3 months ago |When Sony have an ILC – that can exploit Leica lenses – they’ll have a huge opportunity. However that ILC will cost more than $3K according to rumors and let’s see what else it does. The Leica will be double, not triple.
You can’t fairly compare a fixed lens cybershot to a full-frame mirrorless and Sony still have to prove they’ll be there for the long-haul. Leica lenses are better than anything Sony has. The new 50mm Summicron is the best 50mm lens ever made. The RX-1′s lens is matched to the sensor and mount. It can’t just be ‘converted’ into a prime of the same quality.
I would love to mount Leica glass on a great Sony body but the odds on Sony making Zeiss branded compact primes which match Leica quality is slim. Primarily because they’d cost too much to sell. The odds that, if they do, those lenses will work with current bodies in 40 years is almost zero.
Leica sell more than cameras. They have a legacy and that offers security. I doubt APS-C E-mount lenses will have good bodies to mount to in a decade. Sony is notorious for launching and then abandoning formats.
I hope Sony continue to thrive but ‘killing’ Leica takes a lot more than the RX-1.
Q3photos
3 months ago |The SonyFF needs a smaller LCD, but a big huge EVF. EVF double the size of the A99
Zeuss
3 months ago |Agreed. ALL upper-level cams EVFs should be 50%+ larger than they are now. Like good 35 film camera VFs.
Eric
3 months ago |People will still buy Leica … look at EOS M….
Stan
3 months ago |EOS M has a sensor smaller than APSC…
Paul
3 months ago |And people also buy it… What he wanted to say is: It’s more about brands than about performance for most people…
Stan
3 months ago |Ahh, thats what working for 12 hrs does to you, my bad. I thought he was comparing EOS-M trying to kill Leica lol. I was going to add that NEX is closer to the goal in that case, but clicked “Submit” too fast.
vodanh1982
3 months ago |I still want a Leica if I can afford it. People will look at the red dot with jealous eyes LOL.
BMan
3 months ago |Let’s rephrase the question.
Will Casio/Seiko/Citizen kill Rolex?
What do you think, Andrea?
Leica will not be harmed by any Japanese maker.
spaceman
3 months ago |Good point BMan, but in this case Leica lenses is the Rolex, not the digital back.
The digital back, being it M9, M240 or NEX is simply a digital back which becomes obsolete with the next model. Exclusive lenses don’t, just like exclusive watches.
Q3photos
3 months ago |and dont forget that Leica was never ever good at electronics. they can even read the SD memory cards without freezing.
Sony’s electronics on the other hand will eat Leica for breakfast.
Now take the best of both worlds, take a sony fulframe mirrorless sensor and couple it with leica summilux lenses!!!
Q3photos
3 months ago |**can’t
z
3 months ago |In fact, Casio/Seiko/Citizen did kill 90% of swiss watchmaker companies.
Sky_walker
3 months ago |Only at the low end (and as always: cheap products are majority being sold).
Wheelus
3 months ago |The difference is that those cheap watches keep just as good as time as the Rolex.
Sky_walker
3 months ago |Some can keep better.
But you don’t pay for accuracy, but for a craftsmanship.
It’s meaningless for 99% of people who can’t afford at least one of these per month, by for everyone else: it’s something important.
misterfolkertsma
3 months ago |I don’t think you can compare the RX1 and M’s in terms of photographic experience, i.e. the handling, how it affects your shooting style, how it feels to shoot etc. On that aspect, it really is apples and oranges. RF vs EVF. The rest of course is open to comparison.
Gunnar
3 months ago |with every post the FF Nex gets more expensive.. didnt it start of at rumored 2k some day in the past?
Renato S.
3 months ago |I think that this way we are overrating DxO ratings, which we all know, only tells one bit of the whole picture, so let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves. Sony is doing an excellent job in the sensor area and the RX1 is a very well received camera, but Sony has a lot of job to do, namely with the glasses and all the different mounts and sensor sizes.
Maxwell
3 months ago |Is Leica cameras handmade in Germany?
If so it tells 70% of the price different.
rDk
3 months ago |Sony RX1 is hand-made in Japan.
Stan
3 months ago |+1
Under Zeiss supervision and QC.
subtom
3 months ago |Don’t forget Leica’s technical strengths… and Sony’s weaknesses. Sony is likely to “kill” Leica on the sensor, as much as Leica is likely to “kill” Sony on lenses.
Alf
3 months ago |That’s exactly why a FF NEX could really kill Leica : You can put Leica lenses on a Sony body. But you can’t put a Sony sensor in a Leica body.
Only Sony offers you the best of both world, not Leica …
Zoltan
3 months ago |Yeah but I bet Leica makes most of their money on the leses so in your argument Leica as a company won’t be killed.
“Sony kills Leica” can be understood in two particular ways:
a, Sony’s new digital camera will kill Leica’s digital camera
b, Sony(company) will kill Leica(company)
Clearly most people mean the Leica Cameras will be trounced by new Sony tech but this could even drive up the sales of the Leica lenses like I believe the NEX-7 did!
Sythrix
3 months ago |Just another case of people paying for a name regardless of quality. I will give the Leica the benefit of being interchangeable.
Everyone does realize the only reason the FF NEX is going to be so expensive is the RX1 right? They can’t justify the price of the RX1 any other way. If someone were to look at both and compare an interchangeable NEX with the fixed RX1 with similar specs,they’d choose the NEX almost Every time if the prices were comparable.
Leica aren’t the only ones who overcharge based on superficial concepts.
spaceman
3 months ago |This is why a FF NEX is a BIG deal. The perfect digital back for Leica M-mount lenses, and other lenses as well for that matter.
Come on Sony, just get Zeiss to make three FF E-mount primes as an excuse to release that FF NEX!!
bobob
3 months ago |4000$ is insane for a FF nex…
Rob
3 months ago |Michael Reichman used a Nex 7 with Leica lenses all winter, and was quite pleased with the results. I’m guessing he’d be very very pleased with a FF Nex using his Leica lenses. Read for yourself. Leica should be concerned….
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/m_waiting.shtml
robdel
3 months ago |For some reason this site, which I do enjoy reading, becomes periodically obsessed with “killing” Leica. If Sony wants to survive in the pro camera market, they better start concerning themselves with “killing” Canon and Nikon, who are their actual competition (and against whom they have made only modest gains at best, when it comes to pro adoption). Sony’s problem in this respect isn’t their DXOMark scores, but their lack of proper pro support (camera support and replacement programs, for example), penetration with the rental houses, lens selection, etc. Pros know there is more to photography than test scores.
Leica digital rangefinders offer shooters two things unconnected to image quality: a unique interface (rangefinder focusing system, extremely simplified controls, primarily manual settings) which leads to a unique style of shooting in today’s day and age; and a connection (real or imagined) to a legacy that reaches back to the very beginning of 35mm film. Neither the NEX-9, nor any camera Sony is likely to release will challenge Leica on either of those two fronts.
robdel
3 months ago |I didn’t mean to respond to you specifically. Although I would point out that as much as Michael Reichman enjoyed the NEX-7, he is still planning to purchase the new Leica M. And that’s the point. Even people who feel a camera like one of the Sonys is technically superior still end up purchasing a Leica (if they can afford it, they buy both). It is not completely rational, but Leica does not appeal to the rational side of the brain frankly.
Emir
3 months ago |Sony cannot kill Leica… why? optics!
spaceman
3 months ago |Correct, but creating the best digital bodies is not bad business either, especially when digital bodies (backs) are something people change every now and then.
…so potentially Sony, Leica and Zeiss can do great in a symbiosis
Rob
3 months ago |A FF 32 megapixel sensor with current RX1 specs in other categories, in a Nex 9 body, will be too good to dismiss – especially if it sells for $2700. It would work with Leica lenses just as well, if not better, than Leica’s own cameras, as we see in Reichman’s article. Most rich and class conscious people aren’t dumb, and would want better results for a fraction of the money.
Rob
3 months ago |Sony should be more concerned with putting out a super competitive DSLR – which I would buy. The killer DSLR should use a sensor that’s significantly better than their own 36 megapixel unit. Get serious Sony! Stop pissing around in the fringe markets.
jarno
3 months ago |I always said, leica is overrated. Yet, there is proof :p (enough for me).
But still keep buying Leica guys, I don’t care. You know to shoot better with leica, It has to.. because of price….
nemeng
3 months ago |I maintain an extensive Leica FAQ at “leica.nemeng.com”, so I know my Leicas =)
Really haven’t bothered to keep it updated. Leica makes fantastic lenses (I own 4 Ms and 2 Rs), but their digital camera bodies are half-baked and rip-off over-priced. Frankly IMO Leica killed themselves when they released the M8.
Most of my film-photography nowadays is done with Hasseblad V-series cameras. For digital I use the Leica lenses on a Sony Nex 5n. Am waiting for the 7n, hopefully with the corner issues fixed this time.
John Maverick
3 months ago |Most Leica fans are probably a lot less nostalgic for mechanics of rangefinders than people might suspect. I own Leica too but am pretty happy with Leica lenses on a NEX. A SONY FF would be game-changing.
Maxwell
3 months ago |Admin, is there coming a 85mm E-mount prime soon? There where some
rumors about that here (SR4) some time ago.
And any new about when Zeiss release the new E-mount primes?
Keep up the good work, thanks!
Str
3 months ago |I think a rangefinder is a rangefinder. I use nex 7 and leica M and both Konzepts are well usebell.
If you Take pictures every Konzept has its One and only Solution .
Jürgen
Sky_walker
3 months ago |+1.
Personally I also don’t qualify rangefinders as mirrorless. Completely two different categories for me.
Ms
3 months ago |Well now Sony needs to get it together, release a clean, single-mount ff mirrorless and some worthy lenses and we’re in business. Just don’t get distracted guys and follow through!
Rob
3 months ago |It needs to be well under $3000, and have IBIS – THEN you’d have a killer cam.
ms
3 months ago |under 3000 and with EVF… I could live without IBIS… it’s convenient but that’s not why I’m buying a compact FF camera (using good technique and a tripod still works too
Maxwell
3 months ago |Agree. Just include an in-camera EVF. And keep the price under $3000.
cyrus
3 months ago |You have to compare apples with apples…
The D3200 has better score than the double priced A77… And so what?
Rob
3 months ago |Ummmm, how is the autofocus in movie mode for the D3200? You’re right, you DO need to compare apples to apples, and then contradict yourself by comparing a basic dslr to a more video-capable camera. On the other hand, how would an Nex 9 FF be substantially different than a Leica FF – esp if the Nex could use Leica lenses transparently? You make a two-pronged argument, but both prongs are failures.
Sky_walker
3 months ago |Rob, I think he was just showing that you cannot compare one with another, and that DXO scores of either of them changes nothing.
cyrus
3 months ago |Exact Sky_walker…
Rob, I think you misunderstood the goal of my comparison in the comment…
robdel
3 months ago |You do know that the NEX-9 doesn’t technically exist yet, right? Yet you and others have no problem comparing an imaginary camera to one you can purchase today. How is that an “apples to apples” comparison?
Denis
3 months ago |AF in movie mode isn’t valuable advantage at all: every serious movie operator uses MF
ms
3 months ago |lets not get carried away… the camera doesn’t exist yet, and when it does we’ll have to see how well it plays with RF glass before we go comparing it to Leica. Frankly, i’m more interested in how it stands on it’s own two feet and what kind of glass is offered for it (by Sony, Zeiss, Sigma and whoever else wants to get in on the action).
Seeky
3 months ago |If Sony wants to be called revolutionary forever, the next step shouldn’t be a NEX-9 whatever, but the NEX-M. Yes, I said it, an FF NEX camera with NATIVE M-mount!
Why? Sony will likely never outpace Leica, Zeiss and Fuji in the optics department. By producing an M-mount camera Sony has the ability to create the perfect body for M-mount lenses, and at the release of the NEX-M there will be hundreds of lenses available from Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander. In addition, Sony can produce a new line of AF M-mount lenses in partnership with Zeiss, and Sony themselves are able to make OSS AF lenses for it. This would be a winner, only if Sony is smart enough to think through a photography centered body. A NEX-M body will be far more valuable than any E-mount body, since a lens selection and support is guaranteed by grandpa Leica, and Sony will be credited for bringing AF to the last MF standing M-mount! Heck, if Sony isn’t fast enough Fuji will!
RTI
3 months ago |I really laughed, maybe sony should release a FF and a nex to leica M Sony branded adapter, now that’s some crap you wrote there… srsly
Seeky
3 months ago |Since I wrote some crap, can you please provide some arguments why that is so? By your reasoning, the Zeiss Ikon and Voigtlander Bessa R’s were also bad ideas?
RTI
3 months ago |I don’t see any point in those sentences you wrote, there’s nex mount and there are tens of different types of Nex to leica M adapters, which cost from 9$ to 100$, buy any you like. Instead you come with a “genious” idea… Look where Ricoh is with their GXR M mount module…
Seeky
3 months ago |I don’t say that it is a genius idea, but it would make sense if Sony wants to compete at the level of Leica. I could argue that the short registration is not always preferable over the longer distance of M-mount cameras. We already saw what happened with Sony e-mount lenses: they need to be telecentric and long to perform well. With the very short flange distance of the NEX cameras, Sony will have a hard time developing small FF lenses.
John Maverick
3 months ago |+1 Personally I am happy to use an adapter for M->E because since they’re nice and small, but totally agree about making the sensor changes needed to support M lenses.
There is an entire ecosystem of lenses out there ready and waiting to be used just the same as if one purchased a Nikon DSLR.
Vlad
3 months ago |It won’t be credited with much money though. You said it yourself – Zeiss lenses and Sony ones with OSS. And that is what they are doing.
Cyrus
3 months ago |Not only Sony cannot kill Leica. The launch of a full frame NEX will boost the sales of Leica Lenses. Prices of used Leica M and R lenses will go up as well.
cyrus
3 months ago |Same pseudo-name for 2 different persons
Simon Falkentorp
3 months ago |I personally believe, that Leica can produce more beautiful pictures than the RX1. Mainly because of the lenses. And i say that as a (very happy) RX1 owner and shooter.
Sky_walker
3 months ago |Lenses, sensor that’s optimized to work with them (try google for example of Leica glass on NEX7 – amazing purple blurred edges), and finally: a CCD sensor instead of CMOS. This all adds up to the maximum possible picture quality.
Arnold
3 months ago |Didn’t you notice that the M 240 does have a CMOS sensor ?
Now what do you say CCD fanboy ?
Q3photos
3 months ago |it is not a cmos sensor, it is a new type of ccd sensor that looks like a cmos but acts like a ccd so it is a duck
Denis
3 months ago |LOL
It’s the funniest BS I have heard recently
Sky_walker
3 months ago |CCD Fanboy. lol. I need to note it down. Noone ever called me like that!
Bill Beebe
3 months ago |If Leica were meant to die they would have died decades ago during the film era, and they almost did. What keeps Leica alive are all the Leica lenses (and Leica-mount lenses made by Zeiss, Voitlander, etc) across the decades. With all of that rich catalog to choose from, it is Leica’s game to lose, not Sony’s to win.
And if you think the Leica DxOMark is bad (and quite frankly it isn’t), go back and look at the M-9 with an overall DxOMark score in the sixties. That’s right, the M-9 is far worse, except at base ISO, which is where the majority of Leica owners work anyway.
I don’t own Leica (I can’t afford it), but I’m no fool. Until Sony can even begin to match Leica optically, both in breadth and depth, then anybody who claims “Sony will kill Leica” is an totally clueless about the cameras and photography in general.
Arnold
3 months ago |The Zeiss 35mm that equips the RX1 is one of the best lenses ever made,
so yes I think that Sony can manage to match Leica lens quality, and at a fairer price.
ihateidiots
3 months ago |Eh yeah, but why is it that 3 or so years since the NEX has been released, we only have one or two lenses worth a damn on the NEX system?
Let me pretend to a be a fat cat: since Sony is clearly geared for the mainstream. It can’t release lenses that the peasants cannot buy, since they will rant and cry, and judging by the comments here, there will be lots of it. The peasants here are already ranting about the RX1, let’s not talk about a premium lens for the NEX system.
Sky_walker
3 months ago |*waits for NEX fanboys to flame you for talking blasphemy about their “outstanding” lenses*
EddyH
3 months ago |DxO today also published the results of the new M Typ 240, which has a much higher score: 84, which is still less than the RX-1.
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Leica-M-How-does-the-new-24-megapixel-CMOS-sensor-in-Leica-s-latest-rangefinder-perform/Comparisons
EddyH
3 months ago |Oops… only now saw that you had the recent DxO figures, not the ones from earlier this week. Please ignore or delete my previous comment.
Colin
3 months ago |“Will Sony kill Leica?”
I must have missed the part where Sony released a competing digital rangefinder.
Twaddler Belafonte
3 months ago |Nonsense, Sony could release 10 digital rangefinders per year! Of course they’d only make like 5 lenses for it, with only 1 or 2 of those even worth scoffing at.
Alf
3 months ago |Autofocus outperformed Rangefinder focus a long long time ago.
And if you prefer manual focus, Sony also implement Focus Peaking, wich is the 21st century’s Rangefinder technology.
UK
3 months ago |Sony has to work long and hard on the lenses for the NEX-9 to beat Leica. A decent sensor is not everything…
Carl
3 months ago |It was pretty obvious that Sony was going to make a better sensor than CMOSIS. That said, the latter did a good job of staying within the ballpark, and the sensor is no worse than the ones Canon makes.
If you want a rangefinder you aren’t about to buy a Sony because they don’t make one.
Alf
3 months ago |Rangefinders require a vertical straight line to focus.
Focus Peaking allows you to focus immediately on anything you want.
If you want to focus on a landpost, they’re both equally efficient.
But if you want to focus on a eye, focus peaking is better.
Both Fuji and Sony found a way to emulate Rangefinders to add to their autofocus.
Leica never found a way to add autofocus to their Rangefinders.
tesilab
3 months ago |The focus peaking algorithm is simply a superimposed image of the results of the convolution filter that is run in service of the AF. That image is also based on detecting horizontal contrast (vertical lines = horizontal contrast) more than vertical contrast. It does that for reasons of efficiency. So focus peaking or not, it is all based on detecting vertical lines.
John
3 months ago |My RX1 is faulty!!!
It didn’t come with the hacksaw to change the lenses …
Zeuss
3 months ago |If not priced out of line (yeah, sure…), a FF Sony w/a Seriously good EVF, and focus system, could be like the 21st C version of the Contax G2, vs Leica M. -Only with a lot more advantages this time, in: size/weight, AF, MF (if done really well for once), lens mount compatibility, etc.
This assumes Sony lets real photographers have more of a say in final design and implementation of functions.
crazydoctor
3 months ago |m43 cameras sensor is also better than leica M and m43 are at least 10 times cheaper so anyone is surprised rx1 sensor is better than m43? you should also make a post to state rx1 > m43
spaceman
3 months ago |Seeing that the RX1 beats the nex Leica M 240 in DXOmark is big.
…and no, no m43 sensor even comes close to the new Leica M 240 sensor. You probably mean the old CCD sensor originally made for the M9, which is, what, 4 years old now?!
Q3photos
3 months ago |but my samsung s3 cellphone camera is better than all the m43! for cheaper yet! micro43 is not all that
Eduard
3 months ago |Brilliant idea to make a FF with M-mount with ability for Sony and Zeiss AF lenses!
Roni
3 months ago |But it’s not just leica vs sony. It’s Leica vs Zeiss+Sony. Zeiss is often better than leica for far cheaper.
John Maverick
3 months ago |Zeiss make a very good selection of M-mount lenses available for Leica too!. Reading forums you will find some prefer the ZM Biogon 35/2 rendering over the Sonnar 35/2 found in the RX1.
Eisenvater
3 months ago |Zeiss is not good as alleged! -> http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/02/25/the-zeiss-zm-35-biogon-f2-lens-review-on-the-leica-m9/
John Maverick
3 months ago |You can find other reviews that show the zm35/2 is actually sharper than the ASPH Leica at anything other than wide open. Huff obviously didn’t bond with it in his review, but it’s no loss.
Roni
3 months ago |Zeiss ZM 50 f/2 very similar to Leica M 50mm f/2 APO.
Go to the blog http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/25/leica-50-2-apo-asph/ and scroll to “A comparison between the 50 AA and Zeiss ZM 2/50 Planar”
Zeiss 50 is $860
Leica 50 APO is $7200. That’s almost 9x the price!
Ken Rockwell has some reviews that also show the 35 Zeiss is comparable to the Leica 35. For probably a third the price.
JoeNoName
3 months ago |I emailed last night Andrea over changing A to E mount, and it seems really possible, as someone stated above:
“People who buy Leica care how lens draws picture, how colorful it is, if body is a tool, not a gadget, how it performs in field, what’s the history behind it, how it was made, etc. etc.”
Well, maybe with the great sensor of Sony and an easy M to E mount, problem solved, great optics with the performance of the bests sensors on the market. WIN-WIN.
I think im gonna wait for that Nex9 eventhough my camera is broken and have to wait 1 year to get a new one.
SVOR
3 months ago |An M mount for iPhones, now you are talking! You could do a really cosmic tilt and shift too.
Luke
3 months ago |omg YES! Imagine the Noculux 50mm f/0.95 on the iPhone 5.
It would be truly revolutionary in size and weight, and we could all keep using our 50 0.95s!!!!11!one!!!
Twaddler Belafonte
3 months ago |It’s nice to see Leica users finally have access to a competitive imaging sensor, with decent high ISO abilities. Cool stuff.
Ron
3 months ago |As a leica M and sony nex user. There is no way a full frame nex will ever kill leica.
Simply because the M is a rangefinder camera, and the nex and RX1 are not. Apples and oranges.
Only when sony comes with a digital rangefinder (zeiss digital ikon?) they would compete with the leica’s.
further, the leica’s aren’t as overpriced as many think they are. Sure they are expensive, but so are the canon tele primes, or is the canon 1Dx. Quality costs money. Comparing the price difference of a 3000 dollar mass produced compact sony to a hand build rangefinder camera with expensive materials and a really expensive precise mechanical part (the rangefinder itself) isn’t really fair.
About the DxO test, I have the leica M9P myself with the (accoording to DXO) worst full frame sensor ever build. And still it always amazes me how good the quality is of the pictures it gives me. Sure the nex is better on high iso’s, but at the low iso’s there’s nothing in 35mm format I know of that can hold up against the output of the M9.
JS
3 months ago |I’d spend 6k on a Leica before I spend 4k on a Sony NEX. I would spend 2k or less on a FF NEX.
9islands
3 months ago |It only beats the Nex 7 in low light, and I’m looking forward to see how the Nex 7n will compare
LeicaSnoob
3 months ago |Take that beytch slap M240 LOL
One More Thought
3 months ago |I agree with Sky Walker: The Leica crowd will stick with Leica no matter what, for the reasons he stated: mystique, brand image, lens quality, shooting with a rangefinder, etc…plus, this sensor for the new Leica is more than good enough by today’s standards. I mean, the Leica customers were sticking with Leica even with the old sensor.
The real question should be not whether Sony can take most of Leica’s customers and kill Leica, but how can Sony play in the sandbox that Leica does not inhabit with regards to mirrorless FF ILCs.
Sony needs to ask what it takes to get that market…the people who cannot or will not pay Leica pricing, who perhaps want AF…
Sony needs to avoid setting too high of a price precisely for this reason: if they price their offering too high, then it will be too close to Leica and then you are just competing against Leica for their very loyal customers. The rest of the people will not bite at too high of a price, and think if they were going to spend that much they may as well get Leica.
That’s one reason why I think $4K is too much to charge; remember, you have to consider the price of the system…lenses, high priced Sony accessories, etc…and at this price point you are getting into the type of affluent customer who will already have Leica or be more inclined to go for Leica once they crash through certain price barriers.
Sony needs to offer a compelling differentiation with Leica…I am sure their sensor will be great, but that alone will not do it, unless their sensor is some breakthrough miracle of technology. They need to compete on price, and on other electronic advantages, such as great AF, an integrated EVF that is much better, etc.
robdel
3 months ago |Excellent post. I like Sony cameras, own one, and want them to succeed in the ILC market (so they will continue to flesh out their lens offerings). Chasing Leica is a waste of everybody’s time. People who want a less-expensive Leica-like experience already buy Fuji (and I don’t mean that as a knock against the cameras, which I think are great).
One of the things that has attracted me to the Sony NEX-6 is the fact that it’s a break from the past in so many ways: excellent APS-C sensor in a tiny body; packed with cutting edge tech; built in EVF instead of an optical viewfinder. When I want to connect with the past I shoot my Leica. When I want to feel the future I shoot my Sony. Each has an equally valid place and for me, are complementary experiences and not rivals.
Dr Doodle
3 months ago |Well, these are different Cameras, Rangefinder versus Live-View. I would go for the Rangefinder, sorry. The ISO and lens of the Sony are good, but its not as much fun as with a proper Camera.
dan
3 months ago |um wtf, please no 4k FF NEXT
James
3 months ago |Buy a leica… leica idiot.
Beaur
3 months ago |Leica may already be dead. They might always exist in a niche.
Leo
3 months ago |In the past, different cameras use the same films, Leica still sell much more expensive than others. Though it is much more important now, sensor is only one of the elements of photography. Lenses, toughness, ergonomics etc, are still important to many users.
Syl
3 months ago |I would go for a Fji X100s instead..cheaper than those overprices cameras…more fun to use Fuji! great iso perfs, film effects..and cheap!!! stay tune and check out sone of the x100s reviews!!!
Christopher Mark Perez
3 months ago |I wonder what the annual sales of Leica actually is?
Leica has been dead for years as they haven’t produced a competitive camera in decades. Pixel peepers have a difficult time finding a difference between the hugely expensive Leica stuff and Sony/Canon/Nikon.
If any of these cameras were truly and visibly superior to another, don’t you think the pros would’ve moved to that system?
All that keeps Leica in the news are their prices, which leads to your ability to impress strangers with the amount of disposable income you seem to have.
Sky_walker
3 months ago |Seems like they are handling quite well. As far as I remember: For last few years their income constantly grew from year to year, and in 2012 they noted record-breaking income.
MarcoSartoriPhoto
3 months ago |I find DXO test charts useless: I prefer to look at pictures taken with a camera+lens combo, so I can see what kind of photos can be taken (composition and project are up to me). DXO tests are good to keep up comment posts on websites though. Comparing sensors and only sensors is like comparing engines. Of a car to a truck.
ferdi
3 months ago |SAR you are a fappy fanboy with those post… its a rumor that sony kill leica?? what can kill sony? sony cant kill anybody in the camera market! and is not his pursue to kill something… you, sar, made 2 identical posts only for the big number of comments and views
admit it
alphabart
3 months ago |You all miss the point. It’s about German decency. The Leica is build like a tank , call it Rolls Royce, with Brass and Magnesium.. No a Rolls Royce doesn’t beat a ferarri in speed, doesn’t beat a BMW in cornering… But it’s there! And in 50 years, it’s still there. BMW/whatever is not going to kill a Rolls Royce, as Sony is not going to kill a Leica. They will happily exist next to eachother.
Eisenvater
3 months ago |This discussion is pointless. Leica makes over all the best lenses and with the 240 Leica users get a good sensor. Leica users do not care as much about money as other users. Sony does not want to beat Leica, this market is already occupied by Leica. Again, … Sony has to deliver cameras & lenses and concepts to beat Nikon and Canon etc. Sometimes … less is more. They have to deliver top notch hardware & user interfaces & apps for a moderate price. Also a much better service! Think about the poor firmware updates. Fuji is much better there!
xspider
3 months ago |Yes Sony will kill Leica right after Hyundai kills Rolls Royce because of their more fuel efficient machines and their better electronics
ram G.
3 months ago |That will be great if Sony kills Leica, sure. How many of us are waiting for a Leica body to put the Sony brilliant sony lenses they have, on? Non, right. And by the way, this “DxoM doesn’t tell the whole story” is often presented as an excuse used by Leica owners to defend their choice. But guess what- most Leica users have some SLR or another and a bag full of best available lenses. Most those who argue against Leica have never used a digital Leica, many never held a rangefinder in their hands. I am probably going to wait for the sony Nex9 for my 7 rather recent Leica lenses, as I don’t have the budget for the Leica M. But I am going to keep the M8.2, which I use along with my Nex system and Canon slr system, or update it with an M9. Sony is not a rangefinder. rangefindering is a form of photography, not the only one, but appealing to some. If Sony would make a rangefinder that will be something else. It does not.
peevee
3 months ago |Leicas are not bought for performance, they are bought for name.
Rick
3 months ago |Unfortunately, most Leica owners own them because of the name or because they have some nostalgia for the old days of rangefinders, not because of the quality of the photos. A big deal is also made over the fact that their cameras are “Made in Germany” like that is somehow so much better than being made in Japan.
Leicas are status symbols. That’s unfortunate, but somehow they’re able to get away with fooling some wealthy people (or even worse, non-wealthy people who save up for years to buy their cameras).
Leicas are like Picassos. He wasn’t anywhere near the best painter around, and he was most definitely overrated, but some people like his style.
That’s the sad truth of the matter. So I don’t think that $4,000 Sony NEX cameras well sell well at all. That’s like a less famous painter doing a more skillful painting than Picasso and trying to sell it for half the price. There’s still very little chance that s/he will succeed, just because s/he doesn’t have the status.
MS
3 months ago |Life is not fair, isn’t it?
winc06
3 months ago |There is more to a camera than a sensor. I have used both Leica and Sony. I would rather use a camera so well designed that it becomes instinctive to use in very short order, like a Leica. Intelligent auto does not count as instinctive operation.
Edward Yezekian
3 months ago |Will Sony kill Leica?
only if Sony puts a red dot on the front.
seriously… people don’t buy Leica because of the performance, they buy it because it’s Leica. and they will continue to buy it, because it is a status symbol.
Fernando
3 months ago |Do not forget that DXO, just compare sensors, so this does not mean that Sony is better than Leica. The cameras are completely different and not comparable from any point of view, only have the same size sensor.
James
3 months ago |As I’ve said on the questionnaire NEX-FF posts- IF Sony stick to their vision, and produce a viable alternative (i.e. something as attractive to pro rangefinder users as a Leica, with a FF sensor and slick control interface, and great lenses) at a fraction of the cost of Leica YES they will kill Leica! If they chicken out and produce a cut-down piece of junk with no EVF and not enough control for pro users, they won’t. Simple.
dfhy
3 months ago |The Leica sensor is very poor compared to the current best models , the £580 D5200 gives it a run for its money beating it in every area but noise with half a stop being the only weakness of the Nikon , the £340 D5100 gives it a run for the money.
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/850|0/%28brand%29/Nikon/%28appareil2%29/844|0/%28brand2%29/Leica
Here is how it looks when compared to the top FF sensors , not so clever , plus at its UK price you can buy a D600 + Sigma 35mm F1.4 for £500 less! than the RX1 , the D800 + 35mm F1.4 is only £60 more
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/834|0/%28brand%29/Nikon/%28appareil2%29/833|0/%28brand2%29/Sony/%28appareil3%29/814|0/%28brand3%29/Nikon
The RX1 delivers excellent image quality but it is an overpriced one trick pony by the time you add an EVF or VF you are at £3000
Florian
3 months ago |When Nissan introduced the GT-R, everybody says it was far better than a Porsche 911.
Few years later, the 911 is still an amazing legend and despite the fact the GT-R is an excellent car, it’s not going to be a myth.
The point is, sometimes you don’t want to get only the best performances,you’re aiming for something different like charisma, aura and so on.
Dmitriy Konstantinov
2 months ago |Test Sony RX1
http://d-konstantinov.livejournal.com/635160.html
Dmitriy Konstantinov
2 months ago |Test Sony RX1 II
http://d-konstantinov.livejournal.com/637661.html