(SR2) Sony A77 with two semi-transparent mirrors?
The sketch above has been designed by the anonymous rumor source.
Last night I received following message from a new source. Beeing a new source means that you have to be very careful with the info he gave me. I don’t know yet if he is telling me the truth!
The message:
“Yesterday Sony explained the new system that will be used for the incoming a77 (the a750 will use a regular SLR design). Practically the are using two semi-transparent mirrors and a high-resolution EVF to reinforced the live image. They are using a reflexive technology design called 70/30, between each semi-transparent mirrors.
The final image in the viewfinder will have 30% of original image and 70% of electronic reinforced image through the new EVF.”
Message to the anonymous sender: Can you create a fake email account and contact me? Would be nice if we can stay in touch together! Thanks!
Reminder (SR = Sonyrumor):
SR1=probably fake rumor
SR2=rumor from unkown sources
SR3=50% chance it is correct
SR4=rumor from known sources
SR5=almost certainly correct!
Joris
3 years ago |Sony clearly indicated the one and only A700-successor (of which a mock-up was shown at PMA and at Photokina) will be a translucent model. It would be nice to have a conventional DSLR at the same level in Sony’s line-up of Alpha cameras (like the A55 and A580) but I don’t think that it’s going to happen. Oh, well. Wait and see, I guess.
(http://www.dpreview.com/news/1009/10092114sonyatphotokina.asp).
smallmartin
3 years ago |not really. They say that there will be an A700 successor with SLT system, not that there won’t be a A700 successor with DSLR system
mike_2008
3 years ago |Complete and utter bollucks.
smallmartin
3 years ago |Hum IMHO this system will cost a very huge amount of money to adjust very precisely, EVF and OVF. It will be far more expensive than adjusting the A900 OVF don’t you think?
That sounds like a good idea but will it be feasible.
Edgars
3 years ago |30% light from first mirror and 70% form second means ~20% (not 30%) of light in WF.
Such a complicated system for high speed shooting?
smallmartin
3 years ago |Yes there are errors in it. Many errors…
The AF system will receive 21% of the initial light
The OVF only 9%.
The EVF screen will not direct light to the AF system that would be just stupid. 100% of the EVF light will go to the actual viewfinder…
Luis
3 years ago |In that sketch, the AF sensor receives only about 9% of the light. Usually AF sensors receive around 25%-35%. How well will it work with 1/3 of the light they usually need??
The optical viewfinder will also only get around 21% of the light (usually they have 70%-75%). It will be “reinforced” with the electronic image to achieve the same brightness, but what the hell does that mean?? And what’s the point of all this complication?
Sounds too weird to me…
phlapp
3 years ago |The diagram seems wrong to me, 30% of incoming light is bounced from the first mirror up to the second mirror, then all of it is bounced to the vf? Shouldn’t 30% of the 30% go to the vf?
The af sensor seems to get all its light source from the evf, which doesn’t seem right.
Luis
3 years ago |Ah, ok, now I understand the diagram correctly.
But now the problem is: the AF sensor is getting the light from the EVF! Can that work for phase detect autofocus??? Because if that’s even possible, why the hell did they need the semi-transparent mirror in the A33 and A55? And why wouldn’t all mirrorless cameras have PhDA using this method?
Mike
3 years ago |You are wrong, the AF gets the light reflected by the first mirror and passing the second one.
The VF gets the light reflected by the first mirror and reflected by the second mirror AND the image of the EVF passing the second mirror.
What you will see is an overlapping image of OFV and EVF, an MEOVF (Mixed Electronic-Optical Viewfinder, cool word ehh
I can’t get the opportunities of that conecpt at the moment, any suggestions?
Luis
3 years ago |That’s what I first thought too, but then realized that the diagram clearly says that the red light is the light entering through the lens, while the blue line is from the EVF.
So the 30% of light reflected from the first mirror goes directly to the VF, none to the AF sensor (and even if it did, as I said above it would be 9% of the total light to the AF sensor, and that can’t work).
Joel
3 years ago |Sony would be surely be better of simply placing a transparent OLED screen in front of a conventional OVF. You’d get the benefits in resolution of the OVF, plus many of the useful features that the EVF provides such as histograms, levels etc. This idea of having a hybrid EVF/OVF seems both difficult to manufacturer and very inelegant.
Dulaney Ward
3 years ago |unless it works-then it will be described as extremely elegant
john
3 years ago |Off topic but
Welcome back Dulaney….CGirard was trying to get a hold of you on DPReview
Others there have missed you too
A100
3 years ago |Even if we disregard the previously mentioned errors i still see a big problem with the composite OFV / EVF view.
All EVF’s have a slight lag, which may not be perceivable in an pure EVF, but with this composit view it seems like you could get pretty distracting “ghosts” between the instantanceous optical view and the “reinforced” EVF view.
Iggy1965
3 years ago |The EVF will have a timing problem compared to the OVF. The OVF part will be too small to notice.
The exact overlay of both EVF and OVF will be difficult to make and maintain, due to manufacturing tollerances and temp creep.
I think EVF only will be our part for the future. Even with FF.
DD
3 years ago |Unless I’m missing something – with out a pentaprism to un-reverse the image, the EVF and OVF images won’t be the same anyway. This seems like an unworkable idea on all levels.
Sky_walker
3 years ago |Nope, it’s all fine in this matter.
There are two reflections: From main mirror, and secondary mirror, meaning the image is fine.
In pentaprism you have 3 reflections, so in camera there are 4 total, meaning also that the image is fine.
Dalli
3 years ago |If this would be a phase detection focus, than this camera is unable to fokus any objekt. A phase detection focus need the reale light to focus, otherwise the focus will try to focus the LCD screen.
Victor
3 years ago |There is no pentaprism at the diagram so image in the OFV will be rotated. And due to EVF there is no space for pentaprism or pentamirror.
Mike
3 years ago |It’s mirrored twice, so why should it be rotated?
Sune
3 years ago |Can it really focus with the light from the EVF?
toppukuma
3 years ago |if this is true… then sony can build a NEX camera system with phase-detection AF!!?
Mike
3 years ago |It does not use the EVF for the AF, but the light mirrored by the first mirror and passing the second one.
Sky_walker
3 years ago |It clearly does use the EVF light for the PDAF. Take a look at the image again – blue beam is EVF light, red beam is TTL light.
toppukuma
3 years ago |I think you’re wrong. Try look at the color it is the light-blue one that’s point in to the AF sensor, not the red one that reflected from main light source.
This is logical because illumination of the image from the EVF can be adjust to compensate to reflect some of it to the AF sensor.
Joel
3 years ago |Was the person who did this sketch high?
john
3 years ago |maybe if we all get high we will understand it better.:-)
imaanyAieR
3 years ago |its so wrong, bounce light is 100% not 30%, because the mirror reflection DID NOT FILTER the light out.
why need an OVf with EVF? its sooo wrong with the picture/diagram.
Bob
3 years ago |A false one I’m afraid – the image seem from the reflection would be upside-down… (that’s why you need a penatprism for an eye-level optical viewfinder)
Mike
3 years ago |The image is mirrored twice, so it’s not upside-down.
###
3 years ago |So, why budget DSLR have complex pentamirror instead of just one simple mirror in viewfinder?
Phlapp
3 years ago |Exactly, pentamirrors not only turn the image the right way up they also flip them left to right.
Sky_walker
3 years ago |Total internal reflection.
Victor
3 years ago |Because lens itself gives 180 degrees rotated image.
Geir E
3 years ago |So, you get a delay with an EVF however slight.
Then you use a faint OVF image on top of that
Then you line up with pixel precision just to get a EVF out of sync with the OVF image.
Now THAT would have given the “ghosting rumor” a new life. Now everything will feel like it has a ghost image.
There is no gain in doing this, and it will for sure not be a pretty sight.
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Brett
3 years ago |What I don’t see, and I can’t see that anyone one else has noticed/explained, is where does the “electronic viewfinder” get its light from?! The diagram doesn’t show this. All it shows is that 30% of the original light goes up (70% to sensor), If this light then hits another translucent mirror as is shown, then how can any of this light get to the electronic viewfinder to be “enhanced”
The diagram is too mickey mouse, unless he/she is drawing it from memory and has missed something
Anyone else see this?
My opinion is it’s “Bogus”
Din
3 years ago |The Electronic viewfinder gets it from the sensor…
What I see is:
-the light from the lense is reflected (30%) and transmitted (70%) . The 30% is completely reflected to the viewfinder.
-the image from the EVF is reflected (30%) and transmitted (70%). The 30% goes to the AF sensor and the 70% reinforces the 30% going to the viewfinder.
We would get a 30% optical image and 70% electronic image in the viewfinder.
The AF would works only with the image from the EVF.
Is that possible?
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Dalli
3 years ago |In this diagram it neither be a video focus nor a phase detection focus
Lu
3 years ago |Look closely, the phase detection AF sensor is on the top, and contrast-base video AF can always be achieved as along as you have live view.
The question is how much light does the phase detection AF sensor need, b/c it seems like it only getting 100×30%x30%=9% of the incoming light
Brett
3 years ago |I think what the diagra=m is showing is all 30% of the light off the 1st translucent mirror is going to the viewfinder. the AF sensor is getting its 30% from the electronic viewfinder with the other 70% going to the “viewfinder”. So if the electronic viewfinder get’s it’s light from the sensor, then you could say it’s getting 30% x 70%, so it’s actually getting 21%, however this is all “electronic light” not optical.
My view of what I see.
Grzesiek
3 years ago |Image will be rotated – it’s lens that does that trick. Image is already rotated when it hits first mirror.
Phase AF won’t work either. Phase AF sensors – two for each AF point – need to “see” image from different parts of lens. EVF is not al lens so it wont act as one. Back to AF sensor – most important part is, that image is always sharp on it. So it’s obvious that in this set up EVF will project unsharp images at AF sensor. Only contrast detection could do with that, but in that way dedicated sensor is pointless.
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saturazzi
3 years ago |Grzesiek is right! This is almost certainly a fake “rumor”!! Meaning, this anonymous source has made this up all by himself. Sadly, he has little or no clue about the principles of SLR cameras!
With this design, the photographer would see the picture both upside down and mirror flipped in the viewfinder. Regular SLR cameras use a pentaprism, which send the light in a 4-digit path (two reflections) to straighten up the picture.
Also, placing a phase detection AF sensor behind the focusing screen (which Mr. Anonymous even has forgotten to draw!) is completely meaningless! To make phase detection work, the light needs a “clean” path to the AF-sensor!
PMS
3 years ago |OK, what if the “viewfinder magnification glass” acts as a lens (i.e. rotates an image once again) rather than a loupe?
Possible?
hanugro
3 years ago |I think, in order for EVF to be able to feed the AF sensor, it need to be very high res. Maybe 2mp is a minimum with slightly bigger than current A55 EVF.
Sky_walker
3 years ago |The PDAF sensors are very low resolution one usually. If you’ll have a proper lens between EVF and PDAF in theory it should feed image sharp enough for PDAF.
IMHO This idea is brilliant – to give PDAF sensors the EVF light – but it’ll require a lot of adjusting and very precise work to achieve working setup… therefore price of such camera might be not as competitive as A55/33 price is.
Physicist
3 years ago |This really hurts me. Note PDAF from EVF light IS NOT POSSIBLE!
Please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofocus
Sky_walker
3 years ago |well, I guess it’s true. ~_~
saturazzi
3 years ago |To rotate the image, you need a pair of lenses, separated by one focus distance. Maybe possible, but the viewfinder would be ridiculously long. That’s why this hasn’t been done yet.
Anyway, the biggest flaw with the design is to let the focus sensor “look” at the electronic view finder (EVF). This is completely pointless. Phase detection auto focus sensors works in a far different way. PDAF is pivotal with both DSLR and DSLT (like A33/55) cameras.
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SxeHunK850i
3 years ago |Nonsense, the resultant image would be out of phase due to image processing time lag from the evf circuitry.
Try again!
Brett
3 years ago |The other curious thing is the upper translucent mirror is translucent on the upperside (30/70)and a full mirror on the bottom (100/0) as all of the light from the first mirror is reflected by the second mirror to the viewfinder. Is it possible to make a mirror this way that will work with 100% efficiency?
Thoughts anyone?
SxeHunK850i
3 years ago |for 100% efficiency separate light sources has to be involved, beam spliting will always reduce light intensity,
SxeHunK850i
3 years ago |Somebody please stop Sony in its tracks if they really think that this is going to be a good idea for a pro camera.
The A700 replacement has to come a whole lot better than that. A77 or A7XX, please Sony, no lowlight advantage over the competitors in Canon 7D & Nikon D300S, please.
I had to literally redraw the diagram with a program that can chop out the light intensity only to find out that 9% ends up going to the AF sensor which aint sufficent and the mysterious EVF sensor is where?
Crap!
Look how the fool that put up this rumor has this site loaded with comments, yeah it caught me as well.
Crap!
SxeHunK850i
3 years ago |It would have been betterif the rumor included a pentaprism up there or something instead of a second transluscent miror.
ffasae
3 years ago |Technical NOT POSSIBLE in this way
the resultant image would be out of phase due to image processing time lag from the evf circuitry.
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saturazzi
3 years ago |Bottom line: F-A-K-E-!-!-!-!-!
Even a stupid one!
Please accept it! End of discussion! Over and out!
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