More about the FF sensor development and Nikon partnership…
As you remember we received an email from one of our sources about the future Sony Fullframe and Nikon partnership strategy. That email created a lot of heavy discussions. The source contacted me again and sent me following text to publish. Feel free to express your opinion, he is reading your comments!
“It is a total BS that Sony will quit FF sensor business. Sony is gearing up for major push into pro photography because they can make the best video-still convergence cameras including for newsmen. That is why their main DSLR lens push is into FF. Sony does not need Nikon. Nikon needs Sony. Even if Nikon would get their sensors elsewhere, Sony has no problem making FF sensors for themselves only. No one has as much experience as Sony in sensor design and no matter hown much Canon tries, they can’t compare to Sony. Sony is only now getting heavily into DSLR sensor business. Don’t believe the posts that Nikon can make the same quality sensors as Sony. The imaging chipset comes with image processing, including HD video. Nikon can work with another company that would design the chipset for them, with Nikon input, but it would be crazy to try to do that when Sony is getting heavily into the same kind of business and Nikon knows that they would not be able to compete on the same level, even with sensor design outsourcing.”
I know that this text sounds like it was written by a “SonyFanboy” (He says: “Canon can’t compare to Sony”). Fact is that he gave me correct “rumors” in the past. The question now is if after the very good and expensive Nikon D3X ($7,399.95 on Amazon!)
P.S.: We are working to get news about the new NEX and Zeiss lenses, and about the A77 and NEX7 camera. If you know something feel free to share your news using the contact form on the right sidebar. Every little info helps!!! Thanks!
santela
3 years ago |When he says Sony doesn’t need Nikon, I believe him.
When he says Sony will be pushing for FF DSLRs, I believe him.
But when he says Canon can’t compare to Sony… I think he’s just a fanboy.
I love my NEX camera and I know Sony is good. But c’mon… Canon can’t compare to Sony? Look at the market share!
(And no I’m not a Canon user)
Alex
3 years ago |Maybe Canon doesn’t make any money on their full-frame cameras?
Being “best” doesn’t always mean having the most sales.
JP
3 years ago |I think that what the source means is “Canon can’t compare to Sony … in sensor design/development”
Myst
3 years ago |canon’s sensors are under what Nikon and Sony offer, Canon has huge market share cause they had great cameras and still do, but their sensors are losing ground, slowly but surely.
Nikon can live without Sony but i doubt they will make a huge investment to try and make their sensors themselves, maybe in a few years but not now.
Sony can live without Nikon, but FF development so far has been not really good, they had great cameras which some people appreciated but there wasn’t a big enough userbase to sustain the FF cameras, and the cameras just weren’t good enough to make too many people jump ship.
So far Sony hasn’t really attacked the high end market, a700, a900 and a850 were good cameras but lacking a lot of features, if they plan to be profitable in the high end market they should either offer amazing new cameras or slowly try to build market share over time like Canon and Nikon did. Sony can change their strategy, in the end we will just have to wait and see what happens, the thing is Sony hasn’t said they will attack the pro market because they never really did.
kmfan
3 years ago |All this ‘pro’ equipment BS doesn’t matter, what matters is having better cameras.
What happens when advanced compact cameras (mirrorless, non interchangable lenses) move to 4/3 and aps-c sensors? Do we still need dslr type cameras? Do we still need a collection of lenses? Do we still need/want bulky slr bodies when shooting in the field?
If anything, for an ‘advanced enthusiast photographer’ camera i would like to see 35mm film camera with optical rf AND lcd screen for ttl live-view/review. Similar to current compact digitals, but it captures to film instead of digital sensors. And bring back manual controls like the apperture and zoom rings.
acolyte
3 years ago |I’ll be a bit biased in my opinion here.
Sometimes pros are too proud of their equipments. They won’t accept the reality that radically new technologies such as mirrorless will ever compete with their $x,xxx bodies. Also, in a way, if you see a guy bringing a huge camera, don’t you respect him more?
Go to a wedding. Someone brings a NEX 5 and another brings a A290/A390. Who would you respect more?
It’s one of those old thoughts that would take a while to let go :p
Froo
3 years ago |The published text is unfortunately complete crap and this completely devalues the previous post.
1) Sony are not using their own processors for their DSLR cameras (at least not the ones I know of), they are using third-party ones, at least some models use Toshiba SoCs. Before that they were MegaChips (same as Minolta/KM). “Bionz” is just a marketing name.
2) Generally, Nikon has had no problem keeping up with Sony in software — arguably they have been better at it using the same sensors. I agree that Sony AS A COMPANY has, in theory, much more resources and video competence. If they use it, they can certainly whoop Nikon’s ass, but they haven’t so far. It looks like the camera division is largely on their own, not cooperating with other divisions having more competence.
Time will tell if and when Sony realizes that a paradigm shift in videography is happening, right now, and rearrange competences to adjust for reality.
bloodsucker
3 years ago |“Sony can live without Nikon, but FF development so far has been not really good, they had great cameras which some people appreciated but there wasn’t a big enough userbase to sustain the FF cameras, and the cameras just weren’t good enough to make too many people jump ship.
”
cameras are decent and some are good, but where are the pro grade lenses? do sony expect us to scour for 10+ years minolta telephoto and super telephoto on ebay?
Sky_walker
3 years ago |“Sony are not using their own processors for their DSLR cameras (at least not the ones I know of), they are using third-party ones, at least some models use Toshiba SoCs. Before that they were MegaChips (same as Minolta/KM). “Bionz” is just a marketing name.”
Out of curiosity – any source of that? Who makes chips for who?
Anyway – Chips production isn’t anything as complicated as sensors production. There are dozens of factories capable of manufacturing the CPUs that might be used in DSLR. In this matter what counts most is 1) processing power (what isn’t a thing that eg. Toshiba can make better than Sony or whoever else – it’s still just computing of binaries
) and 2) software.
So – I don’t care who makes the chips. It might be as well Intel as XCAZTE, or however these tiny chinese factories are called.
Froo
3 years ago |Sorry, I can’t go into detail, but you can verify it yourself (as you should) — look for camera teardowns on the web.
Chips production is at least as complicated. You can’t just slap in a generic xscale and hope for the best. Camera SoCs contain generic ARM/MIPS cores, that’s true, but they also have quite a lot of fixed function/specialty parts. Just to get a layman-understandable argument: think of how long it takes your very powerful computer to do RAW conversion. Now, a digital camera with its tiny, slow, energy-starved processor has to do several of those per second. This is impossible to do without specialty logic in the processors. Today’s camera SoCs are highly integrated and specialized — they can run generic software due to the generic cores, but that’s not all they are.
Sky_walker
3 years ago |Well, good point, good point, agreed. They are not as simple as regular CPUs (if they can be considered simple at all), but still – it’s mostly a matter of software (if we dare to call internal CPU commands like that), not the fabrication of equipment that works with analog signal, light gathering, and so on. So far all the companies involved in dSLR market shown that they are more than capable of working on the picture given by the sensor, unlike working with light, noise, colors.
Myst
3 years ago |currently mirrorless isn’t a viable option for anybody making a living out of photography, there is a reason why people buy were expensive cameras, they are way easier to use in all situations, i doubt anyone would be able to shoot a wedding better with a mirrorless camera that that person would using a pro camera, mirroless is nice for casual shooting, even for advanced amateurs, but pros can’t rely on that type of camera, they would just miss shots they normally would get with a pro camera.
I don’t think mirroless will be a viable option fro pro anytime soon, maybe the translucent cameras have a big chance if they shoot video and they can shoot high resolution images while shooting video that would be a super tool for a lot of pros who are using both video and DSLR for their events, although it can’t fully replace having both video and dslr.
elliot
3 years ago |Sorry, you ARE merely passing along militant fanboy garbage.
Were this guy’s previous “correct rumors” ever unique or first, or did he just email you something that was first found, for example, on a Chinese board?
This rumor posting just does not smell right, and you should know better.
elliot
3 years ago |Nikon can work with another company that would design the chipset for them, with Nikon input, but it would be crazy to try to do that
So Nikon is either “crazy” or completely beholden to Sony. A complete waste of time from a doofus fanboy.
Neil
3 years ago |Fanboysim *facepalm*
Parci
3 years ago |I asked the same question the last time this wonderful and mystic rumors guy gave (less) wonderful and mystic rumors: what about the D3/D3s sensor? Are we pretending it never happened? Because that is one (well, two) serious example(s) of a sensor Nikon is using that is NOT a Sony sensor.
Sky_walker
3 years ago |Yes, it’s great, but it’s 12MPx on full frame. It’s like… using tech 3-4 years old.
IMHO If Sony would make 12MPx on full frame – it’d wipe out D3. But I’m 99% sure they won’t – such DSLRs have quite narrow aim and IMHO Sony isn’t ready for this kind of specialization just yet.
mike_2008
3 years ago |It seems to me that sony are pushing hard on all fronts, and will continue into the pro dslr cameras. Why not… Sells more of their sensors.
Tom
3 years ago |D3 sensor is almost 3 years old. D3s sensor – completely new and different from the D3 sensor – has yet to turn one year old. 12 megapixels doesn’t equal 3-4 year old tech.
Sky_walker
3 years ago |Fanboysim, agreed.
So far though I haven’t seen any evidence that Nikon can create it’s own, modern sensor without any assist from side of Sony.
Also – if Sony wouldn’t be sure that it can survive without Nikon (which threatens to break cooperation with Sony for a little while), it wouldn’t invest millions in new sensors factory!!!!
So sorry but the fanboy is 100% right about one thing – Nikon needs Sony far more than Sony needs Nikon.
bloodsucker
3 years ago |sony should buy over Olympus
Sky_walker
3 years ago |There’s nothing to buy – Olympus is dead in DSLRs so far. If they won’t show anything till Q1 2011 I’ll dig them a grave officially.
Currently Olympus counts in mirrorless segment – more cause it begun everything than because it’s better than competition, but still.
bloodsucker
3 years ago |zuiko lenses…
acolyte
3 years ago |I still have a friend who loves Olympus and don’t want to switch :p Not a mirrorless too hehe
Dr. Tom
3 years ago |Sony has done so little to keep the professional camera buyers happy and I don’t think they will even be able to capture the FF market again. I did purchase the A850 and I love the pics but I will never use it beyond 200 ISO simply because there is too much noise which is appalling since there are lots of pocket cameras with less noise with the same ISO. The rumored FF firmware never happened and it shows that Sony really doesn’t care about the pro camera buyers. I was looking for the Sony FF camera for a while, watching the market for them and there was ALOT of people selling the camera shortly after buying it. I really doubt that any of them will re-invest in Sony after getting burned once. It appears with Sony’s FF cameras you get what you bought and there is no follow up to keep the hi end buyers happy after the sale.
dk
3 years ago |I’m pretty sure the pro know how to work around the noise issue. Not saying that noise isn’t an issue on the 850/900, but it’s hardly as serious as many think it would be. I’d suggest you to read more on noise post processing if you never use your 850 beyond ISO200.
acolyte
3 years ago |It’s too early to say they won’t be able to capture the FF market again. However, they will have to do quite a bit of work to do so. After all, there are differences between ‘professional camera buyers’ and ‘professional photographers’ – the latter doesn’t change bodies that often o_O
e_dawg
3 years ago |What noise problem? How are you processing your images? What RAW converter are you using? With the latest converters like Lightroom 3.2 and ACR 6.2, the noise “problem” on the A850/900 does not exist anymore. Even before LR3/ACR6, Aperture did a good job of converting ARW files with high resolution and low noise. Can’t use it beyond ISO 200? Please, let’s not exaggerate!
Dr. Tom
3 years ago |Not everybody wants to shoot in RAW and spend hours editing especially when my A500 has much less noise with JPG pics in higher ISO than my A850.
qbic
3 years ago |Noiseless jpeg from A850/900 for pixel peepers:
set jpeg resolution to 13 mpix, set off DRO, done.
icie
3 years ago |Canon is certainly competitive in the sensor front, especially in terms of what they are sinking into R&D. See recent news, for example,
24 Aug: 120MP APS-H sensor with 9.5fps capability
31 Aug: 202mm by 205mm sensor capable of ridiculous low light performance with high-speed readout
4K concept camera with 60fps
Granted these seem gimmicky and are unlikely to see use, at least at the enthusiast range (and possibly not at pro range either), but the fact that they have the resources to develop stuff like that proves that they either own the show, or can give Sony a run for their money. My position is all this Nikon vs Sony stuff is a red herring. Canon is the one to watch.
Sky_walker
3 years ago |tech-demo sensors don’t mean anything. Using current tech it’s possible for Sony to develop roughly 250 MPx APS-H sensor (at least – that’s how someone calculated it).
What counts most are photos quality. Sure, Canon has decent noise performance and nice sharpness, but colors? Bleah… what Canon sensors give is unbearable. Samsung despite of it’s very short history of APS sensors managed to build something far better in it’s NX10, yet Canon can’t improve though being on the lead of DSLRs.
Edgars
3 years ago |I suggested before watch a video (see link below). Megapixel wars just starting and there is two major players Canon and Sony. Nikon is far from this new techs.
In ISCC 2010 was plenary lecture about Sony success and future plans in image sensor area. Overall they have awesome future plans. Sony wants to surpass human vision: 100Mpix, Super HD video (4K x 2K at 240 frame/s), sensitivity less than 0,1 lux and high speed video 1000fps.
I suggest to watch this presentation video (Challenges of Image-Sensor Development):
http://isscc.org/videos/2010_plenary.html#session1
Summary of Mr. Suzuki’s presentation! – go here:http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol60/pdf/sideview60.pdf
Kaydi
3 years ago |oXvVTz Good point. I hadn’t thought about it quite that way.
Tristan
3 years ago |Sony just need to get the new FF series up to market ASAP!
I stored a bunch of new ZA/G lens, only waiting for the FF body.
Currently, i can only expect a580/550 as a back-up plan before new FF showing-off.
steve
3 years ago |This guy is definitely living in a sony bubble. I doubt he really knows what long term sensor decisions are being made behind the scenes.
mike_2008
3 years ago |@steve
“This guy is definitely living in a sony bubble. I doubt he really knows what long term sensor decisions are being made behind the scenes.”
Whereas you are an expert on such matters, I assume?
panfruit
3 years ago |SONY IS BESTOR THAN ALL! QUIET~!
asu
3 years ago |sony sensor is a joke, except the one that nikon use…..
LOL
Sahaja
3 years ago |New Nikon D7000 using Sony sensor ….
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/NikonD7000/
“at 16.2Mp it offers the second highest resolution of any Nikon DSLR, behind only the 24Mp D3X. All of these pixels are packed onto a newly developed CMOS sensor, which is almost certainly the same or very similar to that in the Sony Alpha SLT-A55. As well as extra resolution, the new sensor also offers a higher ‘standard’ ISO span of 100-6400, expandable up to the equivalent of ISO 25,600.”