Surprise: Nikon D5200 doens’t use Sony 24MP sensor. It’s a Toshiba!
Image courtesy: Chipworks.
That’s an interesting news! The Nikon D5200 doesn’t actually use the same Sony 24MPX sensor but as discovered by Chipworks it has a new Toshiba sensor! This may be one more sign how Nikon wants to move away from a complete Sony supply dependency. That’s just my pure speculation but this may be an indirect good news for us Sony users too. We may don’t see Sony sensors being exclusively sold to Nikon while Sony itself will have to wait 6 or 12 months before using it on their own cameras.
Amateur Sony Shooter
5 months ago |Maybe that’s because Sony’s sensor too noisy, even for Nikon to work their magic?
Marek
5 months ago |I do not think so. I rather shows that SONY does not have exclusive know-how for making CMOS chips. I well maybe SONY is just a good producer of chips – it has good yields ratio and enough production capacity.
Sky_walker
5 months ago |Read that: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201102/11-0228E/index.html
Toshiba Semiconductors == Sony.
Vivek
5 months ago |As the article points out, the Toshiba sensor is a better one with copper instead of the cheaper aluminum wiring used by Sony. Nikon might have moved away from Sony in search of better quality sensors.
The Lotus Eater
5 months ago |I’ve noticed that you seem to be this forum’s biggest troll at the moment.
Absolutely nowhere does it say that the Toshiba sensor is better because of the use of copper.
Vivek
5 months ago |Who are you? Sony stock holder? Play with your PS3. LOL.
Vivek
5 months ago |Copper = better heat conductor = less noise.
Aluminum = cheaper = poorer heat conduction = more noise.
Not a secret, troll.
The Lotus Eater
5 months ago |You are making huge assumptions based on very little information – unless of course you have some test reports to back up your assertions.
My desire for people not to post misinformation or assertions without proof does not make me a Sony stock holder – how old are you, 12?
Vivek
5 months ago |May be not a stock holder but definitely a candle holder.
Where were you and what did you say when all the hype about how D800 uses a Sony sensor? What good did that do to sony camera users? There is a mid level, over priced, A99 after a long time that some confuse as the “flagship” camera.
The fact is that Nikon are doing quite well as a camera company and they can do without Sony. That is a good thing. If Sony want to be a big player in the photo business, they should face up to the competition with real innovation, instead of candle holders claiming that DXO rating should be adjusted for the 1/3rd stop light loss due to the pellicle mirror that Sony put in the optical path. Nearly 1/2 priced D600 doing better than the A99. Can’t stomach it? You can deny all you want to your little heart’s content.
The Lotus Eater
5 months ago |Cool story, bro.
However, it’s completely irrelevant to what we were discussing.
Vivek
5 months ago |It would be *very* relevant if the rumored APS-C mirrorless from Nikon is announced soon and comparisons start coming in.
Brendon
5 months ago |Good argumentative style. Make a statement. Someone refutes said statement and asks for facts.
Rather than apologizing or just keeping quiet the topic is changed to something else.
In any case I for one believe Sony is the only real innovative company. Sure I am not too hot on their insistence of using EVFs but who else offers reasonable AF performance during videos and phase detect AF during live view ? The only thing really differentiating all other DSLR players out there is down to a few minor specification differences and the available lens selection.
Kevin
5 months ago |Copper conducts electricity better. Aluminum is actually conducts heat very well.
klw10
5 months ago |It may use copper but that does not make it better. That will be determined by how well the sensor performs in the camera.
Hellven
5 months ago |Nikon gets what they pay for, if they want better they have to pay more… hey, wait… theres no better then Sony sensors!
Cyrus
5 months ago |Perhaps… Not really a good news…
When you see the DXO rating of the Nikon D3200 (24 Mpx non Sony sensor) scoring similar to Nex7 (24Mpx Exmor)… Sony does not have a clear advantage in sensor technology as we think…
Nikon may have now high quality sensors from other compagnies…
timon
5 months ago |The d3200 sensor was by Nikon-developed. But, the d5200 sensor is not Nikon designed.
The d3200 is merely the lowest-end DSLR camera. But, the Nex-7 is a top mirrorless camera. In DxOmark ‘screen’ mode (non Overall Scores, despite equal), the measured data graphs shown some equal values between both.
I would not wish a 3.8μm 24MP sensor, It is much worse than for a 4.8μm APS-c sensor (16MP).
Neo NiGHTS ®
5 months ago |I’m not a fan of heavily-packed-megapixel-sensors myself but I’d never go as far as to say that they are *MUCH* worse than the 16mp sensor.
Compare the Nex7 to the other Nexes with 16mp sensors and you won’t see a *HUGE* difference.
My biggest complaint about them is that they’re are, indeed, MUCH more “lens demanding”.
timon
5 months ago |Read another reply below, Please
(I do not post again here).
Almazar80
5 months ago |Yeah, I was brain dead earlier and corrected my statement in a later post.
MC
5 months ago |From my real experience of D3200/5200, the image quality is in fact better than NEX-7. Especially, high ISO performance. It maintains more detail and less artifact in compression. But of course, Nikon’s engine out performances Sony always.
Almazar80
5 months ago |Generally speaking, Sony’s 24mp APS-C sensor currently used in the d7000/nex7/a77 is at least two years old. It appears that the later generation Sony sensors (d800/rx1) have been improved. I am interested in seeing if Sony has an upgraded 24 mp sensor and what features such a sensor may have. My guess is that the advanced slt and nex7 replacement will use that sensor. Also a chance that the a65 replacement will have the same sensor. I would think that Sony their new sensor on the lower end APS-C camera as well. I guess we’ll see in a few weeks’ time.
aaaa
5 months ago |d7000 has a 16mpix sensor and the nex7/a77 are not 2 years old but only 1.
timon
5 months ago |you can browse through website Photozone.de to carefully observe the lens E18-55 OSS and the E16 f2.8 mounted on the NEX-7 that imaging is with worse results in Border and Corners, do comparison in between the NEX-7 and the NEX-5. In Border and Corners at the 24MP NEX-7 is obviously lower resolution than the 14MP NEX-5.
Sony E50mm f1.8 OSS is a good lens, but it mounted on the NEX-7 fell into third-class imaging quality. So, Photozone.de told us:
“As already mentioned the 24 megapixel sensor of the Sony NEX 7 seems to have a rather difficult characteristic especially regarding its resolution capabilities at the image corners. This behavior has been confirmed by user observations in the meanwhile (feel free to google). This is a bit unfortunate because we feel that the sensor shouldn’t have such a deep impact on the lens quality. The lens (imaging) quality will be somewhat better on Sony’s 16 megapixel sensor”.
The 3.8μm 24MP sensor is a poor choice even in an APS-c DSLR camera, but it fell into much worse cases on the 18mm flange focal distance system. The sensor micro-lenses are a serious restriction, and the very much shorter back focus distance given worsened the restriction.
Certainly, within next 3 years or 5 years, even if the DSLR camera, the APS-c sensor is still with 4.8μm pixel pitch better, and the 35mm sensor is still with 6.0μm pixel pitch better, but that this is even more obvious of the restrictiveness index in a short flange system (19/18/17mm).
In any event, a too small pixel pitch always comes with more problems, even after the micro-lenses of future sensor disappeared.
We have seen sensor imaging comparison between the NEX-7 and the NEX-5, the observation is through from Photozone taken measured of the lens.
If people who blind worshipped DxOmark’s Overall Scores, it must be you caught with chaff. (Contrarily, DxOmark’s measurement graphs of the ‘screen’ mode have some reference data but limited condition, because there are also lacking many necessary items).
In APS-c mirrorless camera, Sony NEX-6 is a suitably camera selectable, a 4.8μm sensor with 16MP. Sony NEX-6 is worthy buying, with all the mirrorless cameras at 2012.
(Fuji X-Trans sensor lost much colour details, and camera is no electronic 1st shutter curtain mode, no PD-AF on image-sensor, and with much worse pricing, not for a suitable choice, you can search thread 3353913 through in Dpreview, —- “Imaging qualities between X-Trans sensor and Bayer sensor”).
Japanese APS-c mirrorless cameras are not only too short flange distance and pixel pitch is too small (3.8μm), and the camera makers have also provided adapter for the 44.00 – 46.50mm flange distance’s lens system, thus an 18mm flange distance’s mirrorless camera actual is working not merely with one type 18mm, so what is sensor micro-lens to be designable?
Hans
5 months ago |never heard of problems of the 50mm 1.8 on the NEX-7!I own it myself and have read all about it. Some third party wide-angle lenses may have some issues (Sony 16mm 2.8 was fixed via firmware on the NEX-7) but definitely not the 50 1.8 OSS!
taran
5 months ago |http://www.flickr.com/photos/artistwithlight/8354629043
I’m doing some good work with mine on NEX-7…
timon
5 months ago |Some people who taken a Pentax Q, and then shouted the ‘BEST’ camera in the world!
Some people never learned to observe problems, and said “but definitely not the problem”!
except some blind worships, what is other possible things?
peevee
5 months ago |Looking at the dxomark tests of the raws (SNR18% for prints as the most relevant here), difference between NEX-7, D3200 and in fact even Oly E-PM2 are within dxomark’s margin of error.
JPEGs are different of course, as default noise reduction, sharpening and white balance settings are different.
LR
5 months ago |Or maybe Sony doesn’t want to sell its sensor for a too cheap price and toshiba won the bid. Perhaps Toshiba doesn’t mind some technology transfer that Sony is not ready to do anymore, etc.
Per K
5 months ago |The 3200 sensor is branded Nikon! However “sensor” consists of many components that may come from different suppliers. On top of that we have the hw code.
I always believed that Nikon input and requirements to Sony has contributed a lot to the quality.
My real experience of D3200 is that files are not as beautiful as those from my D800 but prints extremely well.
Looking at RX1, D800 and D600 DXO analysis they are the same in IQ from sensor. Not exactly, but in the real world they are the same. The A99 has the translucent thing stealing light and is subsequently weaker on the ISO side, otherwise the same.
Less input from Nikon could make Sony sensor less competitive in the long run. I believe that Sony has a substantial sensor research budget, more than Nikon. The problem is that Sony is financially bleeding and has done so for a long time. Loosing Nikon as customer jeopardizes sensor development unless they find new customers.
travelshots
5 months ago |Good news for us? You must be joking! If Sony sells less sensors it is bad news for as as long as we areSony shooters.
“We may don’t see Sony sensors being exclusively sold to Nikon while Sony itself will have to wait 6 or 12 months before using it on their own cameras.”
This is pure speculation, I would even call it a fairy tale.
Neo NiGHTS ®
5 months ago |It can be good for us if that competition will make Sony work even harder on new technologies and brings us even better sensors.
Competition is always good as far as competitors try hard to improve
narutogrey
5 months ago |The best commercial sensors/chips/etc… are always the ones that have the highest volume. Foundry equipment and development costs are extremely high, so high volume is the only way to bring new and upgraded features at an affordable price. Without being able to sell at high volume, Sony sensors will have to be more conservatively designed in order to keep costs the same as it is today because they cannot eat the yield differences between a high end low yield sensor and a low end high yield one.
e
5 months ago |12 month wait – for Sony to use on its own Models
WOW, If the A99 Only had that 36mp
It could of been a Contender
abijah
5 months ago |they didnt use the 36mp sensor so they could make 60fps video.
xxxx
5 months ago |60fps is doable in any sensor size with an appropriate technique(eg line skipping). The reason why Nikon cannot do that with its 36mp sensor is.. well, it’s Nikon. They don’t have enough knowledge about video tech, not as much as Sony.
Hendrick
5 months ago |I find this very interesting how Admin suggests that less sales of sensors to Nikon is better for Sony users. On the basis of exclusivity, maybe. On financials, no. Sony needs the cash and although some cameras have greatly exceeded expectations (RX100, NEX 7), that alone isnt going to cover the bleeding wound of the other losses for Sony. Sony needs to sell to others to make cash.
Almazar80
5 months ago |Let me correct my statement earlier. I should have not added the d7000 in my sensor statement – should have said a77/nex7 and pentax 24mp DLSRs. It appears that the 24mp Sony sensor was not necessarily Sony’s best effort in the last few years (the 36mp sensor is better, the 16mp sensors had a little better dynamic range). It would be interesting to see if Sony has a new high mp APS-C sensor with characteristics similiar to the full frame sensor used in the D800/D600/RX1. Putting such a sensor on an A77/NEX7 replacement seems like a logical upgrade strategy.
I don’t know about you, but competition more likely than not produces better products. I am thinking that we are in the last stages of APS-C DLSRs, that soon, mirrorless APS-C cameras and full frame SLR/SLT models will be dominant.
As the Sony sensor business has been a money maker, it has been one of the areas that Sony has actually spent susbtantial capital on. I think Sony is actually beginning to mend financially. That would be a good thing.
VirtualMirage
5 months ago |Alamazar80, Pentax doesn’t have a 24MP APS-C camera either (at least not publicly announced nor released yet). Pentax has lately been sticking to Sony’s 16MP sensor. It appears only Sony is using their 24MP sensor, currently in the A65/A77/NEX-7. So you are incorrect again.
And you keep grouping the D600, D800, and RX-1 together mentioning they use a similar full frame sensor. That is wrong again. The D800 is a 36MP sensor. The D600, A99, and RX-1 share a similar (but may not be entirely identical) 24MP sensor.
Almazar80
5 months ago |I am thinking about unannounced Pentax products. I lump the RX1/D800/D600 because the sensor generation is basicaly the same. I am still thinking about stuff that’s rumored (Pentax wise), not actual products. My mistake.
Almazar80
5 months ago |I was thinking about the rumored Pentax K-3. Since that camera has not been announced, peraps it will use a newer 24mp Sony sensor as well (if it uses a Sony sensor at all).
saiman
5 months ago |It may be a bad news as well…
I imagine that Sony’s alliance with Nikon was probably giving Sony a right to use Nikon’s sensor designs in the sensors of Sony cameras… but, ofcourse, with a delay for competative advantage and some added cost of buying the designs. Sony definitely has the production capability to deliver large number of sensors that Nikon cannot. But, I doubt if Sony has engineers good enough to design sensors that can compete with Nikon.
Nikon probably weren’t fully satisfied with such arrangement, as Sony cameras were getting benefitted by Nikon designs and took some shares of their profit. Moving to Toshiba, they made sure that yheir designs will not leak to a competator’s camera.
All these are my speculations where none c may be true. Though one this is clear with this: Sony itself does not have any exclusive design advantage in sesors that others cannot produce. It will be more clear after DxO tests this Toshiba sensor against the Sony sensors.
olala
5 months ago |Sensor design? When was the last time Nikon had a CMOS patent? Sony is currently the number one holder of CMOS sensor patents, Canon is next. Nikon does not manufacture sensors because they don’t have a fab. What Nikon does is order bare CMOS sensors from Sony and other makes such as Renasas and Aptina(now Toshiba)and add their own micro-lens technology (which Nikon does have a patent)and their own ADD processing at the output stage. ‘Designed’ or ‘Developed’ by Nikon is pure marketing BS. What Nikon does is tweak the sensors and they do a very good job at it.
john
5 months ago |It’s like ordering pizza……hold the anchovies
I designed my house on a napkin. Sent that sketch to an architect who drew up blueprints that were sent to a contractor who built my house. I selected all the interior colors which I painted on the walls. But I designed my house.
john
5 months ago |Show me all the CMOS patents Nikon have filed in the last year.
Sky_walker
5 months ago |I believe I seen one on 3-layers sensor. One for curved sensor (released after similar Sony patent). And one for on-sensor PDAF used in Nikon 1. But that’s pretty much all.
Maciej
5 months ago |No more Sony hegemony?
Hans
5 months ago |Well, nothing is bad about it. Competition is always good for us customors. We shouldn’t get Sony-Fanboys! The comments above remind me a bit of Apple-forums
Besides the 41 Megapixel Sensor in the Nokia Pureview is als made by Toshiba and for it’s much smaller size it’s really superb. Toshiba seems to have all the technology, but no wonder as they are a big computerchip-producer as swell…
Leo
5 months ago |If Nikon is so technically advanced in making superb sensors without Sony technology, how do you explain the Nikon J1/V1 performance vs. the Sony RX100? the RX100 has the same size sensor as the J1/V1 and performs much better.
The D3200 shares the sensor as the Nex7 24mp sensor, and they are amongst the best APSC sensor when images are resized to the same size, and better dynamic range and color depth at lower iso range.
Although the D5200 also uses a 24mp sensor made by Toshiba, at least for now we do not see how well it performs compare to the Nex7/D3200/A77 sensor.
Nikon should move away from Sony sensors because Sony competes with them in the camera market and in the long-run they don’t want the consumers to think they depend on Sony. Especially since now that Sony has teamed-up with Olympus, and mirrorless cameras have a bigger profit margin in the future. With three of the top comnpact system cameras (Olympus, Fujifilm, Sony, and maybe GH3) using Sony made or modified sensors, Nikon and Canon should avoid that if they want to be seen as the top elite camera makers.
Bare
5 months ago |No, in Nikon D3200 is not a Sony sensor. It is slightly smaller than sensor in NEX7 and with slightly less pixels bu they have similar performances. D3200 use a Nikon designed sensor.
https://chipworks.secure.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=NIK-NC81369R&viewState=DetailView&cartID=&g=&parentCategory=&navigationStr=CatalogSearchInc&searchText=nikon
Bare
5 months ago |Also in Nikon 1 is not a Nikon sensor, it is Aptina inside.
It’s obvious that Nikon has a goal to became independent from Sony. They now use Sony sensors in D7000, D600 and D800 while Nikon 1 has a Aptina sensor, Nikon D3200 and D4 Nikon sensors and D5200 Toshiba sensor.
Aero
5 months ago |To those people who never design chips…it doesn’t matter as much as who manufacture the chip, it matters who design it. If I design a chip and have Intel manufacture it or having Sony manufacture it, as long as it is within the technology they have, it’s going to be rather identical. Nikon had been providing image sensor design to Sony…it’s not like Sony made the icing and Nikon grabbed it and put it on its cake, Nikon also sat with Sony and find out what kind of icing Sony can make, and tell them, now make it this way, and Sony say, can I make it this way, it’s better, and Nikon agrees, then Sony says I want to also use it because I put in my thought, Nikon say fine. That’s how it is.
Adam Maas
5 months ago |Actually, the Sony-branded sensors in Nikon’s have all been Sony-designed sensors, albeit some have had Nikon-requested design changes to the support circuitry. The sole exception was the D2X/D2Xs sensor which actually was co-developed (Sony’s version was the slightly smaller sensor in the R1).
Nikon’s in-house designs have been branded Nikon, even if fabbed by Sony (and we have little data on exactly who fabs Nikon’s in-house sensors like the D4 sensor). They also use Aptina and now Toshiba-designed sensors.
Really?
5 months ago |Really? How do you explain about the patent? If I (Nikon) designed a chip. How would it end up Nikon has only 3 imager patent? (Per previous comments from others)
ferrera
5 months ago |What I know is that Sony was in joint venture with Toshiba producing Cmos, I’m not sure if this venture has stopped or not, but maybe this new sensor is produced by this joint-venture company
SALik
5 months ago |http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201102/11-0228E/index.html
e
5 months ago |d5200 with Toshiba sensor- Eagerly Awaiting the
DxOMark testing – Still nothing yet
ADMIN – PLEASE NEW SONY STUFF Slt.Nex Info
Steve
5 months ago |As we learned from Sony’s sale of the 36MP sensor to Nikon for the D800 there is no guarantee that we will see Sony’s flagship sensors in Sony’s cameras and that Nikon has a commitment to its customers to market the best cameras it can, no matter who makes the electronics, and this gives Nikon a big advantage.
It’s all about the quality of the image produced in the long run and not about who designed the sensor chip and if you as a company (Nikon, can pick and choose for the best electronics and chips available at the time you have more control and your customers are the winner. Sony on the other hand seems limited to “eating its own dog food” by using only sensors it manufactures.
Gerard
5 months ago |Why is this on the Sony alpha rumor site? It is no Sony camera and it has no Sony sensor. I don’t see the relevancy for Sony here.
What is next? a story about Canon as it has no Sony Chip inside?
admin
5 months ago |Gerard! Everybody thought the Nikon D5200 has the same A77 sensor while the DxOmark results showed that there is a difference in quality between the two cameras. Now we know the reason and I posted it. If you don’t care skip the news and read the other posts.
spam
5 months ago |I think additional related news are interesting, but I don’t understand why you’d expect D5200 to use a Sony sensor when D3200 use Nikon-branded sensor.
El Aura
5 months ago |The D5100 used a Sony sensor, the D7000 still uses a Sony sensor. If Nikon had stuck to the rule that only their entry-level DX camera gets a non-Sony sensor (+their high-end FF, ie, D3, D3s, D700, D4), the D5200 would have gotten a Sony sensor again.
The other way of predicting the origin of the D5200 sensor would have been to say that Nikon is trying to move away from Sony, one camera model at a time and that the D5200 was the next step.
Both are reasonable guesses, in this case the latter one won out.
hmr
5 months ago |This is still a SONY designed sensor only produced by Toshiba:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201102/11-0228E/index.html
Did you really think that Toshiba suddenly from nowhere created a APS-C 24 MPix sensor?
This does not have to be the same sensor used in the NEX7 and A77.
Bare
5 months ago |Markings on sensor indicates intellectual property not who made it. So design of this sensor belongs to Toshiba even though Sony could FAB it.
vancity
5 months ago |I think its still Sony http://optics.org/news/2/2/25
acolyte
5 months ago |Designed by Sony, fabbed with Toshiba equipment? I guess we’ll never know unless we get a true inside leak~
SonyCyberPunk
5 months ago |Who the fuck cares? Semasme street sensor yada yada, as if any of you bozos here can make your own sensor. Get on your knees and thank them that they can make sensors.
RD
5 months ago |Now what are we going to brag about to Nikon users?
Almond
5 months ago |Wow, people are clueless.
Toshiba is a sensor maker. Not long a ago they shared a fab with Sony (as in they were partners). How is this a surprise?
dac38
5 months ago |Trols Galore!
I for one own a D7000 and a NEX 5N. Love my nikon for cretive work (10%), but use the Sony NEX for the rest 90%. NEX is an absolute joy to work with.
Back to the point… Sony sensors rule. Toshiba may have new tech, but its still unproven. A hit maybe , or an embarrassing flop awaits D5200. Not sure if this is wise on nikon’s part to change from the best sensors in the market to an unproven one.
Ario
5 months ago |OK everybody, lets get back to taking pictures…
Ryan K.
5 months ago |Is this Sony forum? Why should we discuss on “non-Sony” cameras with “non-Sony” sensors? Waste time indeed.
Carl G
5 months ago |Sony owns Toshiba’s sensor fabrication business, it’s like an overflow to Sony’s semiconductor facilities. Much ado about nothing really.
C